Drummers

[lazzer]

Interesting topic! My checklist for a drummer goes something like this....

Confidence; will he take charge & lead the band where necessary

Practice; is he prepared to/able to practice other than at band rehearsals VERY IMPORTANT UNLESS HE IS SUPER TALENTED!

Fills; he needs to hold time during fills, not rush or drag 'em

Basics; can he play a very basic straight beat solidly & in time ALSO can he count the song in at the same tempo he starts playing the song in!!

Oh yeah, can he remember to bring all of his kit to gigs!

Cheers. Ben

[flyfisher]

Yep, I'd go along with that list and point 1 seems to be our biggest problem, probably a consequence of not enough of point 2.

[cytania]

Way I figure it is drums and bass are there to keep each other's timing straight. There is a way of playing 'up' just a tiny bit to indicate things should be faster and a decent drummer should get the hint eventually. Likewise one of our drummers is known to shout "c'mon more energy" a real incentive to dig in and go for it.

The original poster's drummer sounds like he's oblivious to the vibe of the song. The feeling the drums should be creating. Just trying talking to him about what the song's about. Ask for emotion.

The light bass kick pedal can be a problem on certain 'dead' stages or when your miked for the PA and it doesn't come over iffy monitors. Try to get a look at the drummers pedal or the light on the front of the drum skin. Listen to the snares and hi-hats, they should be filling the gaps between your bass notes.

Drummers also tend to let sticks fly or break sticks quite regularly. Providing you don't have the drum stick embedded in your head the bass can be the only thing keeping everything on track whilst the drummer fishes out a new stick.

Also check you are actually paying the drummer enough attention. It's all too easy to get drawn up front talking keys etc. Are you one of those bassists that stands stock still? Sometimes rocking back and forth, using the bass neck to indicate the beat gets the point across. If they can see your beat and see the energy you are putting across a good drummer will respond.

[Commando Jack]

I'm kind of confused, because a drummer who is not using his bass drum is a percussionist! I am also wondering what the practise/gig volumes and setups are like. If you're playing at full gig volume then an unmiked bass drum can easily disappear. Also, some drummers will stand on the kick pedal during sound check, and when they settle in to play, they ease off and it gets lost again.

[JTUK]

The basic problem appears to be that this guy has been out of things for so long, he just doesn't play the basics too well.

He has to play more than once a week at rehearsal or he will never get better.

I have to say that I agree with the above that I couldn't be bothered to wait. Get a more capable guy in and suggest the other come back when he has put the time in.

You should know at the first get together if something will work to an acceptable level.
For me, if it doesn't, I'm out at that point.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Commando Jack' post='913283' date='Aug 2 2010, 10:14 PM']I'm kind of confused, because a drummer who is not using his bass drum is a percussionist![/quote]
Funny you should say that, that's how it seems sometimes.


[quote name='Commando Jack' post='913283' date='Aug 2 2010, 10:14 PM']I am also wondering what the practise/gig volumes and setups are like. If you're playing at full gig volume then an unmiked bass drum can easily disappear. Also, some drummers will stand on the kick pedal during sound check, and when they settle in to play, they ease off and it gets lost again.[/quote]
We don't normally mic the drums but I don't think that's a problem as we don't play particularly loud. Our PA is only 220W but we only use it for vocals and we tend to play small venues so the backline gives enough volume. I really don't think we're overpowering the drums.

We have played larger venues where we've used the in-house PA, in which case the drums have been fully mic'd, but it didn't really make much difference.

[Lord Sausage]

Sack Him!

[Bilbo]

I'm no drummer but I can knock out a rhythm. Playing the drums and lkeaving out the bass drum makes its very easy. He's taking the easy route and fooling some of the people all of the time. To be blunt, he doesn't sound like a player at all (not suggesting he can't be but, without practice? No chance).

As for the nice guy bit, my Dad was a lovely bloke but I would never have booked him as a drummer. WHat you have here is a simple dilemma regarding where you want the band to sit in terms of quality. If you are a bunch of mates having a knock, 'nice guy' may be good enough - your social life may be more important than the music. If you have any sort of performance standards, you will probably be frustrated with chummy at the back as he is not delivering on core skills. Its you call.

Personally, I feel that one of the main issues in terms of standards in British musicians (of all genres) is their unwillingness to challange medicority in their peers. If a musician is not up to it, they should be told and asked to make a choice; practice/improve or get off the bandstand. No aggression, no bull, just a straight 'are you up to the job? Yes/No? Stay/Go. Competence is a requirement. If you haven't got it, give the gig to someone who has.

Your drummer is undermining your ability to deliver the music. He needs to be told to improve on his shortcomings or you will need to find someone who has the ability to make the music the best it can be. You deserve that. And, to be blunt, so does he.

[Geek99]

[quote name='steve' post='911461' date='Jul 31 2010, 08:06 PM']I don't think it's necessarily the drummers job to anchor the song, that depends on the song itself, and the individual parts the band members play - if the drummer has a busy pattern to play, he'll probably rely on you to keep a solid foundation, that being said, it shouldn't be your job all the time either.[/quote]
I agree - there are enough varispeed drummers about that you'd be lucky to be able to rely on one. I think everyone in a band is responsible for keeping their own time, and a reasonably competent musician should be able to mould their idea of time to broadly fit what everyone else is doing. A lead guitarist I know said "[i]oh, I dont bother counting or ought like that, I just rely on the drummer[/i]"

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='913875' date='Aug 3 2010, 02:07 PM']I'm no drummer but I can knock out a rhythm. Playing the drums and lkeaving out the bass drum makes its very easy. He's taking the easy route and fooling some of the people all of the time. To be blunt, he doesn't sound like a player at all (not suggesting he can't be but, without practice? No chance).

As for the nice guy bit, my Dad was a lovely bloke but I would never have booked him as a drummer. WHat you have here is a simple dilemma regarding where you want the band to sit in terms of quality. If you are a bunch of mates having a knock, 'nice guy' may be good enough - your social life may be more important than the music. If you have any sort of performance standards, you will probably be frustrated with chummy at the back as he is not delivering on core skills. Its you call.[/quote]

Oh dear. That's what happens when you pose a question to which you really already know the answer - you get a straight non-nonsense answer without all the emotional baggage. That reply is spot on in so many ways, which of course I already knew but was hoping I was wrong. The 'bunch of mates' thing is a big factor and certainly complicates things. As I originally said we're really a 'hobby band' in many respects and we know we're not going to set the music world on fire, but [u]it is[/u] frustrating, to me anyway, that the band has gone backwards and it's certainly spoiling my enjoyment. And what's the point if it's not fun and you're not being stretched? Oh dear.

[cheddatom]

Just talk to him about it. Hopefully he won't take it too personally. If you just tell him to start using his kick and practising, he could get better!

[scalpy]

Personally, I feel that one of the main issues in terms of standards in British musicians (of all genres) is their unwillingness to challange medicority in their peers. If a musician is not up to it, they should be told and asked to make a choice; practice/improve or get off the bandstand. No aggression, no bull, just a straight 'are you up to the job? Yes/No? Stay/Go. Competence is a requirement. If you haven't got it, give the gig to someone who has.

Dam straight! My missus has been depping (singing) with a decent soul band but the alto sax player's instrument is old enough for a bus pass and won't stay in tune. When they asked what I thought I mentioned this and it was like they weren't expecting any criticism at all! Why do we side step around the issues all the time? Tell your guy hit it or be hit!

[Davo-London]

I am a bassist of 30 years and a drummer for 6 years.

What surprised me about playing drums in a band was just how much more responsibility sat with the drummer than the bassist. If you screw up a groove, or fill or start too fast (I do sometimes) then everyone knows it. Play a wrong note or get your timing slightly wrong on bass and it is rarely noticed.

Secondly, playing a really good groove requires dynamics (unless you only do metal). By this I mean Hihat accents on the beat or on the and, two different dynamic levels for the kick drum and the ability to play snare and toms with a range of accents and dynamics. Good dynamic playing requires years of practice. It really does.

Thirdly, keeping time is a b1tch. If you start at 150 bpm, you really have to concentrate and count to maintain that speed. The natural tendancy is to slow down as you relax into the groove. Playing slow tempos is in fact more difficult and the tendancy is to speed up. I agree that tempo keeping is about 80% the responsibility of the drummer but you all have a part to play.

Lastly, I would never play in a band with a musician that doesn't practice and want to improve. I have absolutely no patience for "musicians" that don't practice.

From what has been said I would keep looking.

Davo

[zero9]

What is the opinion of the other band members (unless I've missed it)?

If you feel the drummer is no good, then eventually you'll get fed up with him and it'll stop being fun, which was the point in the first place...

If he doesn't use the bass drum that worries me.

Good luck

Wil

[cheddatom]

Davo - I totally agree on how hard it is to be a drummer and keep time!

[JTUK]

This gets worse as you go back over the original post.
It appears that there is night and day between the two guys you use...but you aren't so very sure..or were willing to let this drag along.
You have rather made a mess of this by allowing the guy to buy a kit when he can't use the fundementals of the kit, ie kick drum.

Most dep guys are pretty damn tight 2 bars into a song they have never played before as a unit..so you don't have much chance here.

How to deal with it...? I think you need to sit down and discuss how much this isn't working but the fact that you haven't collectively done this so far suggests to me, either you all don't know, or nobody is worried about it to any degree. But we know YOU are worried about it and it really isn't going to get better, if you haven't seen
any improvement over a few weeks. Not only does the tempo not happen, I can't see how anything would work without a kick, no groove or anything.

Unfortunately, as this has festered. then I would think a critical band call on this would split the unit up as he is mates of one of the guys and you may well sack him. His mate is probably not going to support that...so..????

But, you really don't have any choice, as far as I can see...it just depends on how you play your hand.

[Davo-London]

Good points. I would talk to the other member of the band who is friends with the drummer first.

Make him understand that your enjoyment is being affected and suggest that another drummer is sought.

Davo

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='scalpy' post='914757' date='Aug 4 2010, 11:44 AM']Personally, I feel that one of the main issues in terms of standards in British musicians (of all genres) is their unwillingness to challange medicority in their peers. If a musician is not up to it, they should be told and asked to make a choice; practice/improve or get off the bandstand. No aggression, no bull, just a straight 'are you up to the job? Yes/No? Stay/Go. Competence is a requirement. If you haven't got it, give the gig to someone who has.

Dam straight! My missus has been depping (singing) with a decent soul band but the alto sax player's instrument is old enough for a bus pass and won't stay in tune. When they asked what I thought I mentioned this and it was like they weren't expecting any criticism at all! Why do we side step around the issues all the time? Tell your guy hit it or be hit![/quote]
This is quite a sweeping statement! Do you have foreign evidence to back up and compare this with (perhaps its all the world). How do you know this is a problem with all genres all over the country. In the majority of bands i've been in we've always pushed to improve each other or just sack bad uns.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='JTUK' post='914994' date='Aug 4 2010, 02:40 PM']You have rather made a mess of this by allowing the guy to buy a kit when he can't use the fundementals of the kit, ie kick drum.[/quote]
'Allowing' isn't really the right word. He can buy what he likes. Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course but at the time it all made sense; rusty drummer buys new kit to get back up to speed after a long layoff - except he can't practice at home.

Also, I wouldn't over-emphasise the tempo thing; he's not [u]all[/u] over the place, it's more like there's no energy there and it's all a bit slow. The previous comment about a drummer without a kick drum being a percussionist was spot-on really.

[quote name='JTUK' post='914994' date='Aug 4 2010, 02:40 PM']Unfortunately, as this has festered. then I would think a critical band call on this would split the unit up as he is mates of one of the guys and you may well sack him. His mate is probably not going to support that...so..????

But, you really don't have any choice, as far as I can see...it just depends on how you play your hand.[/quote]

The whole band is made up of long-term mates really. I'm only a newbie of 18 months, so I think it's a case of put up with it/drop hints to practice lots more
. . . . or leave.

[xgsjx]

I think some folk on here might be reading a little too much into things (it's easy done when reading as opposed to speaking).
It's a fun/recreational band. I would get him working on some grooves that don't require much kick drum (like just on the 1) & get him working the snare & he can slowly introduce more kick as he improves. Jazz & Drum n Bass are good genres for him to work with.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' post='915153' date='Aug 4 2010, 05:07 PM']This is quite a sweeping statement! Do you have foreign evidence to back up and compare this with (perhaps its all the world). How do you know this is a problem with all genres all over the country. In the majority of bands i've been in we've always pushed to improve each other or just sack bad uns.[/quote]

That depends on if you are in a pro-band or a band of mates doing it for fun. Sacking a mate is a difficult thing to do. There have been several threads here asking how to do it. Do we - Disband and form again - sent a text - etc...

This sort of thead doesn't seem to come up in the more 'american' Bassplayer forum. It's definitely an English thing. In general we're more reserved and afraid of upsetting people's feelings. (Unless you're from Yorkshire that is )

[davidmpires]

Point well made Tim, and as an "european" I agree most people are "too" nice to sack someone, I had that experience in my last band, our guitar player always busked songs and the other said he was a great guitar player. I found it odd.

[bigjohn]

surely being able to use a kick drum is a basic of playing the drums?

I can't play the drums very well, but I can knock out a beat and some fills. That's all from having about 5 lessons about 20 years ago. I have a whack on some drums about twice a year now, but have gone over 10 without touching them before. You don't lose the basics - well, you do but it takes about 5 minutes to get them back.

Good drummers are hard to find though. Sometimes someone who'll turn up regular, be a nice guy and learn the songs is enough.

Have you thought of asking him to come and jam, just you and him? That would provide a decent time and place to work on him without making him feel bad.

[TimR]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='915828' date='Aug 5 2010, 12:25 PM']...
Have you thought of asking him to come and jam, just you and him? That would provide a decent time and place to work on him without making him feel bad.[/quote]

As I suggested earlier and I've just realised flyfisher is in Hertfordshire. A big county I know but are you anywhere near Welwyn? Here's the rehearsal studio I mentioned earlier that does a 'single' musician rate. [url="http://www.farmfactorystudios.com/"]http://www.farmfactorystudios.com/[/url]

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' post='915757' date='Aug 5 2010, 11:32 AM']That depends on if you are in a pro-band or a band of mates doing it for fun. Sacking a mate is a difficult thing to do. There have been several threads here asking how to do it. Do we - Disband and form again - sent a text - etc...[/quote]
Yep, you've got it - we're a band of mates playing for fun and managing about one gig per month, mainly at private parties and other events rather than the regular 'pub circuit' (although we have played pubs). Plus, I'm the 'outsider' really in terms of how long we've all known each other, so it's not really my place to sack anyone.

I know of farmfactory but we usually use rehearsal facilities in Hertford.