Need more power

[nottswarwick]

So, loving my Markbass stuff as usual. LMII, full 500w into my 2 cabs which essentially make up a 4*10 at 4ohms.

So, I always have PA support, but we have been doing some pretty big stages, and I have been finding the limits of the LMII - basically as some others have found, at high volumes it compresses , meaingin that you basically cannot get it any louder.

So, I was thinking, perhaps get an SD800 (the 700w MB head), or maybe a GK1000 thing, or maybe see what else there might be? I am after more headroom basically. Any ideas anyone

Anyone used the SD800?

Cheers

Chris

[mikeh]

I'd give the GK a go, I love mine and have so much volume and headroom. The biggest venue I've played with my rig (gk1001rbII and Epi 310) was to 300 people and even without pa support I was only on 1/3 volume.

Mike

[nottswarwick]

did you have an LMII before to comare Mike?

[warwickhunt]

I realise the GK & MB are different amps and the frequency centers may make the GK seem louder but essentially the GK 1001 is 500 watts and the MB is 500 watts! You'd not truly be getting any more power/volume by changing.

I had the LMK and the SA450 and I found both amps had the same volume curve as the old TE gear, whereby most of the volume appeared to be delivered in the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the dial travel.

Edited December 9, 2007 by warwickhunt

[mikeh]

homer used to have a lm2 and sold it after we abed it with my Gk 1001 rb II which for the record is 700 watts
The Gk just seemed to have more balls and punch.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='mikeh' post='101755' date='Dec 9 2007, 03:25 PM']homer used to have a lm2 and sold it after we abed it with my Gk 1001 rb II which for the record is 700 watts
The Gk just seemed to have more balls and punch.[/quote]

Your right of course, it was the Mk 1 RB1001 head I had and I'm sure that was only 500watts. They are very different tonally though so you may get more volume but will you get the tone that you want?

[thumbo]

I've been using a markbass TA503 for the last year or so. It's a bit louder than the LMK I had before and it also doesn't compress as much as the LMK. I think the LMK is exactly the same as the LM2 inside, except for there being 2 seperate input sections in the LMK. The TA503 does sound a fair bit louder overall, I've had no problem playing in a loud stoner rock band with it but the LMK never really cut like the TA503 does.

Did that make sense? I can't write or think properly today.

Edited December 9, 2007 by thumbo

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Make sure that the compression you're getting is within the amp and not the speakers. The average ten in an average cab will only take about 50 watts before it reaches xmax in the 60-100 Hz power bandwidth, so getting an amp that will give them even more may not make any difference.

[carlosfandango]

Yeah I'd check your cabs before shifting the amp - I use an F1 (500w into 4 ohms) into Schroeder 410L (ehhh...1200w @4ohms I think) and that is plenty loud and I haven't noticed any compression (so far). a 4x10 is a great cab but has its llimites in terms of much air it can move.....double the cone area and you will be able to move much more air....How big stages are you doing??? Are you using monitors? Sidefills??? If you are doing heavy rock at serioulsy big stages that you need to up your rig to "touring" specs....think Ampeg SVT plus 8x10 or equivilent in SPL. You have got a very nice rig but may not be designed to fill a stadium!

Edited December 9, 2007 by carlosfandango

[chris_b]

I don't know Mark Bass, but my first idea would be to replace the Traveler 102p cab as I think it's too small to work very efficiently in loud situations. I'd go for a 4x10 and add the remaining 2x10 on louder gigs, or get a high sensitivity 4ohm 4x10 cab to take the full 500w.

[nottswarwick]

Nice replies folks, thanks.

I have read that the LMII does compress at high volumes, hence me thinking that this must be it.

I just think it seems like more headroom would be needed.

We are using big monitors etc, and I think this might be part of the issue - the drum monitor is like a PA, and I am right next to it so seem to need to wind things up to compete, although it does not seem loud really.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='nottswarwick' post='101809' date='Dec 9 2007, 05:45 PM']Nice replies folks, thanks.

I have read that the LMII does compress at high volumes, hence me thinking that this must be it.

I just think it seems like more headroom would be needed.

We are using big monitors etc, and I think this might be part of the issue - the drum monitor is like a PA, and I am right next to it so seem to need to wind things up to compete, although it does not seem loud really.[/quote]

Ive also noticed my SA450 not getting much louder over about 2 o'clock on the master but i also notice its been worse with my smaller cabs than my UL212 (not that thats a large cab).
And i also got a GK1001RBII for the same reason. But it didnt work out for me. I dont really like a gritty sound so by the time i had backed of the levels/boost my Gk was no louder than my SA450 but it did sound thinner. I realise we all hear different things but when i swapped over to the GK for some larger gigs even my band commented on me not being there in the mix like i usually am. While i liked the GK sound for some songs once i needed volume i didn't like the tone i was getting. I used both my SA450 and GK on one gig, using one per set and the MB sounded fuller and louder. more punch as well. again, thats just how we felt.
And, again, like you i looked in to the SD800 but based on the threads over at TB about this amp i felt that maybe it wasnt the answer. Apparently its not just a louder LMII/SA450 although it is louder of course. and quite a bit more expensive.

why not just get a power amp and run the LMII in to that?

And just to correct a post earlier, the GK is 700watts in to 4 ohms, the LMII is 500. I know its not a big real world difference though and i found you needed quite a bit of grit to get it to sound louder than the SA450.

And i agree with the others about changing your cab's. From what i have heard the smaller MB cabs aren't really loud ones. i have only tried them in store but with the same amp settings plugging in a different cab i had more volume.

All IME & IMHO of course.

Edited December 10, 2007 by dave_bass5

[alexclaber]

I seriously doubt that more power will solve your problem. Either get more/bigger cabs or rethink your stage/FOH volume and PA usage. Also consider if the room acoustics are working for or against you.

Alex

[gypsymoth]

+ 1 on more speakers.

[nottswarwick]

Now you mention it Alex, it might have been the last 2 gigs where I noticed it most. At both we were on those big portable stages, and they seemed o have huge bottom end, and perhaps sapped some of the punch?
I cannot really domuch abou tthe monitoring - the drummer likes a huge monitor mix.

Dont get me wrong, I can cope, but just thought I would post up to see what everyone thought.

And this does not alter the fact that the LM2 DOES seem to compress at high volumes - the typical scenario is some big low note slapping - they are not as loud as you would think, and it feels like going into a compressor.

At these 2 gigs the stages have been circa 8 metres wide by 6 metres deep, so quite big really.

Maybe I should try and pick up one of the bigger MB 4*10 cabs and give it a try with my 2*10.

AS an aside, I am quite surprised to find myself writing gbout this, as I am one of the biggest advocates of a quiet onstage sound! But with the pro rig this band hires in, I have struggled a couple of times, that is all.

We are at the same venue next weekend for 2 nights, so lets see what happens.

[woodster]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='102123' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:17 PM']rethink your stage/FOH volume and PA usage. Also consider if the room acoustics are working for or against you.

Alex[/quote]


I'm with Alex on this. I run an LMII into an MB 4x10 and have never needed the master volume above about 12 o'clock. Like you, I have full PA support with monitors and play on little stages and big stages with audiences ranging from a few dozen to a few thousand. Personally, I've not noticed the compression at high volume tat I've also read about but I do find that room acoustics and stage construction (is it hollow) can have a massive affect on my on-stage sound. I'm often told my FOH engineers to turn my volume down but never up!

Have you tried tilting your cabs back so they point at the back of your head? I find this can work well in some cases.

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='woodster' post='102399' date='Dec 10 2007, 09:24 PM']I'm with Alex on this. I run an LMII into an MB 4x10 and have never needed the master volume above about 12 o'clock. Like you, I have full PA support with monitors and play on little stages and big stages with audiences ranging from a few dozen to a few thousand. Personally, I've not noticed the compression at high volume tat I've also read about but I do find that room acoustics and stage construction (is it hollow) can have a massive affect on my on-stage sound. I'm often told my FOH engineers to turn my volume down but never up!

Have you tried tilting your cabs back so they point at the back of your head? I find this can work well in some cases.[/quote]

Right, that is my thinking too. I do sometimes tilt them, to good effect. Which 4*10 do you use from the range? And yes, both stages have been hollow, so that might confirm my thoughts.

I love the LMII to be honest, and it has always been loud enough. I think another cab will be on the list. I will then have 3 - the traveler, which is actually great as a portable option; the standard 102, and another 4*10 to cover all bases and options (obviously only using 2 at a time - 4 ohem min load).

Lets see if anyone has one up for grabs..

[woodster]

I'm using the front-ported 104HF. I tried both the front and rear ported cabs and, to be honest, there wasn't a lot of difference between them. There was just something a little more 'ballsy' about the HF.

[warwickhunt]

In venues where you are all going through a FOH PA then your bass equipment is for your monitoring, obviously if you can't hear yourself then measures need to be taken but the monitor mix is for the 'band' and that should include the bassist. Obviously budgets dictate what your PA can supply but I do get hacked off when drummers (or any band member for that matter) think that their needs are greater than any one else, it should be a balance otherwise 'the band' ends up sounding bad. If a sound guy can't supply your needs then you've either got the wrong gear for the venue or the wrong engineer.

Off my wine... I mean soapbox!

[woodster]

Also, mentioned before in these forums, is the use of a Gramma pad to isolate your cabs from the stage. I bought mine from Dolphin music and it really can be quite an impressive piece of kit. The results vary from slight improvement in my sound, through to 'holy cow!!' but for £60, it can make a difference.

[alexclaber]

Remember that as bassists we have to deal with long wavelengths coming out from our cabs directly to us, coming out from the PA mains/subs directly to us (even if we're standing behind them), coming from our cabs and bouncing off the walls, floor and ceiling to us, and coming from the PA and bouncing off the walls, floor and ceiling to us. All those waves travel different distances so there is phase variation between them. If the phase difference it 180 degrees at a certain frequency they fully cancel. If it's 0 degrees or 360 degrees then they fully combine and reinforce. And although you gain 6dB when the sources combine you essentially lose everything when they cancel.

Obviously you can't move the walls, floor etc, and you can rarely move the PA, but you can move your rig and you can control the volume and tone - remember adding lows to your rig could result in less bottom if it just causes more of the bottom from the PA subs that you're hearing to be cancelled out. The drum monitor could be what's killing your stage sound by cancelling out your rig in critical frequencies. Try taking your bass out of the monitors and see what happens, etc. Experiment - but don't faff about, be quick and methodical.

I wouldn't buy or sell anything, your rig should be plenty for the gigs you describe, you just need to wield it more effectively.

Regarding the GRAMMA, for £45 less you can buy the PlatFOAM from studio spares which is the key component to the GRAMMA, it does the exact same job and you can cut it to the exact lengths you want. It's also a fraction of the size and weight.

Alex

[nottswarwick]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='102432' date='Dec 10 2007, 10:33 PM']Remember that as bassists we have to deal with long wavelengths coming out from our cabs directly to us, coming out from the PA mains/subs directly to us (even if we're standing behind them), coming from our cabs and bouncing off the walls, floor and ceiling to us, and coming from the PA and bouncing off the walls, floor and ceiling to us. All those waves travel different distances so there is phase variation between them. If the phase difference it 180 degrees at a certain frequency they fully cancel. If it's 0 degrees or 360 degrees then they fully combine and reinforce. And although you gain 6dB when the sources combine you essentially lose everything when they cancel.

Obviously you can't move the walls, floor etc, and you can rarely move the PA, but you can move your rig and you can control the volume and tone - remember adding lows to your rig could result in less bottom if it just causes more of the bottom from the PA subs that you're hearing to be cancelled out. The drum monitor could be what's killing your stage sound by cancelling out your rig in critical frequencies. Try taking your bass out of the monitors and see what happens, etc. Experiment - but don't faff about, be quick and methodical.

I wouldn't buy or sell anything, your rig should be plenty for the gigs you describe, you just need to wield it more effectively.

Regarding the GRAMMA, for £45 less you can buy the PlatFOAM from studio spares which is the key component to the GRAMMA, it does the exact same job and you can cut it to the exact lengths you want. It's also a fraction of the size and weight.

Alex[/quote]

Thanks Alex, a great help. I should be able to sort what is not a major problem anyway. I think you could be right re the phase cancellation thing - it had crossed my mind and then I sort of forgot about it.

Thanks

Chris

[steve-soar]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='102407' date='Dec 10 2007, 09:42 PM']In venues where you are all going through a FOH PA then your bass equipment is for your monitoring, obviously if you can't hear yourself then measures need to be taken but the monitor mix is for the 'band' and that should include the bassist. Obviously budgets dictate what your PA can supply but I do get hacked off when drummers (or any band member for that matter) think that their needs are greater than any one else, it should be a balance otherwise 'the band' ends up sounding bad. If a sound guy can't supply your needs then you've either got the wrong gear for the venue or the wrong engineer.

Off my wine... I mean soapbox![/quote]
+ 1 on greedy band members. Unless the whole band can hear themselves, you can bet the FOH sound will be shi*e. Why is it always drummists?
On the more volume issue , try to get eveyone else to turn down to your levels. The best on stage sound I've EVER experienced was at volumes not much more than a good home stereo, that combined with the crowd going ape then feeding the performance we were giving because we could hear each other, resulted in one of our best performances.
Failing that, buy a big amp and an even bigger cab, cabs!
Cheers Steve.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='102451' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:48 PM']Failing that, buy a big amp and an even bigger cab, cabs!
Cheers Steve.[/quote]



Threaten them with this possiblility, they will fall in line.

[carlosfandango]

another neat trick is to roll-off some low end and boost some mids to clear up your tone. when I gig on large stages with huge PA's and subs I try not to compete with the rumble coming from FOH but rather to sculpture my sound "fit" the overall sound so that I can hear myself clearly...it soemtimes sounds absolutely horriblle on it's own but works great i the mix....it also makes your amp much more effective as it doesn't have to "waste" a lot of power on trying to deliver low end at SPL's.