Recording advice please

[Lozz196]

Hoping someone can help here. My band are going into the studio to do a live recording, which our guitarist is overseeing.

This is the problem. He`s one of those people that likes the word "definition", and, when we`ve each tried the others gear, and tinkered around on sounds, "definition" in his mind is "gutless" in my mind, akin to very trebly elastic bands. Whilst I don`t want a load of booming sludge on the tracks, I also don`t want to sound like I`m playing a detuned guitar.

At present, I don`t know if I will be miked/di`d etc. What I`m looking for is, once the recording has taken place, in the mixing process, does anyone have any tips on frequencies to boost/or compression settings etc, to get the guts back?

I know we can tinker around with the eqs/levels ourselves, but some guidance as to what would be most effective would be appreciated.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Lozz196

[Rimskidog]

Er... that's really not the way it works if you actually want to get a decent sound. The trick is to capture the sound you want going in rather than trying to fix it in the mix. Anything other than this approach is pretty much doomed to failure. Let them cut any sludge that obscures the mix afterwards (that's what eq is actually for). It ain't rocket surgery. Quality in = quality out.



[quote name='Lozz196' post='912670' date='Aug 2 2010, 12:06 PM']Hoping someone can help here. My band are going into the studio to do a live recording, which our guitarist is overseeing.

This is the problem. He`s one of those people that likes the word "definition", and, when we`ve each tried the others gear, and tinkered around on sounds, "definition" in his mind is "gutless" in my mind, akin to very trebly elastic bands. Whilst I don`t want a load of booming sludge on the tracks, I also don`t want to sound like I`m playing a detuned guitar.

At present, I don`t know if I will be miked/di`d etc. What I`m looking for is, once the recording has taken place, in the mixing process, does anyone have any tips on frequencies to boost/or compression settings etc, to get the guts back?

I know we can tinker around with the eqs/levels ourselves, but some guidance as to what would be most effective would be appreciated.[/quote]

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='912811' date='Aug 2 2010, 02:11 PM']Er... that's really not the way it works if you actually want to get a decent sound. The trick is to capture the sound you want going in rather than trying to fix it in the mix. Anything other than this approach is pretty much doomed to failure. Let them cut any sludge that obscures the mix afterwards (that's what eq is actually for). It ain't rocket surgery. Quality in = quality out.[/quote]
Cheers for that - kinda what I was afraid of. Was just hoping that, what with recording technology being so much better than what it used to be, there may have been a few tips I could use.

Thanks though, looks like I will just have to stand my ground when I`m moaned at for being too bassy (I`m actually not, I`m just not turbo-trebled either).

[51m0n]

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='912811' date='Aug 2 2010, 02:11 PM']Er... that's really not the way it works if you actually want to get a decent sound. The trick is to capture the sound you want going in rather than trying to fix it in the mix. Anything other than this approach is pretty much doomed to failure. Let them cut any sludge that obscures the mix afterwards (that's what eq is actually for). It ain't rocket surgery. Quality in = quality out.[/quote]

+ all of them....

This is the absolute reality of recording. If it ain't there 'on tape' you can not add it later. On the flipside, if its there and you dont want it you can often lessen it (to some extent), depending upon what it is of course.

[witterth]

see if you can borrow a status.
looks aren't to eveyones taste but they really "do" recording those Basses.
just eq the desk channel flat and turn all on the guitar to "full" for best results. (sounds a bit Nigel Tuffnall that but...)
the engineer will probably comment on its massive output but he'll sort that out for you!
all the best with the project by the way.

[ShergoldSnickers]

There is no substitute for good gear well set up, and recorded using quality mics sensitively and intelligently placed. A lost art in some studios, but others really understand this in depth. It starts with the band sound you have as you play together. Get that right, and the recording part is vastly simplified, and then adding 'definition' should be a minor tweak on the eq.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='witterth' post='912996' date='Aug 2 2010, 05:11 PM']see if you can borrow a status.
looks aren't to eveyones taste but they really "do" recording those Basses.
just eq the desk channel flat and turn all on the guitar to "full" for best results. (sounds a bit Nigel Tuffnall that but...)
the engineer will probably comment on its massive output but he'll sort that out for you!
all the best with the project by the way.[/quote]

Personally, on 7 out of 10 occasions I'd go with a P bass. To my ears there are few basses that record better.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='912820' date='Aug 2 2010, 02:18 PM']Cheers for that - kinda what I was afraid of. Was just hoping that, what with recording technology being so much better than what it used to be, there may have been a few tips I could use.

Thanks though, looks like I will just have to stand my ground when I`m moaned at for being too bassy (I`m actually not, I`m just not turbo-trebled either).[/quote]

Definately. Let them cut on the desk if they want to. Get the best sound you can going in (and make sure they are capturing that)

[crez5150]

[quote name='witterth' post='912996' date='Aug 2 2010, 05:11 PM']see if you can borrow a status.
looks aren't to eveyones taste but they really "do" recording those Basses.
just eq the desk channel flat and turn all on the guitar to "full" for best results. (sounds a bit Nigel Tuffnall that but...)
the engineer will probably comment on its massive output but he'll sort that out for you!
all the best with the project by the way.[/quote]

+1 absolutely ideal for recording.....

[Lozz196]

[quote name='crez5150' post='913090' date='Aug 2 2010, 07:01 PM']+1 absolutely ideal for recording.....[/quote]
Thanks for all your help guys, much appreciated. Looks like I`ll be sticking with my trusty P-Bass/Marshall live sound set-up, and let any tweaking occur [b]after[/b] the recording.

[Lifer]

You always record dry DI'd and then reamp to have a fiddle with the tone.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Lifer' post='914468' date='Aug 3 2010, 11:57 PM']You always record dry DI'd and then reamp to have a fiddle with the tone.[/quote]
Thanks to all for the advice. Just posting an update.

Did the recording last night, and I was expected to plug straight into some non-bass-amp unit, that the headphones are monitored through, and when I tried it, it sounded like a very tinny buzz-saw, crossed with Lemmy. Nowt wrong with Lemmys sound, but it isn`t how I sound, and seeing as this was meant to be a live recording, where all the other band members were using their own kit, requested DI-ing from my amp. Was told that it couldn`t be done!

So, got my trusted Behringer BD121 out, plugged into that, into this non-bass-amp unit, and my bass suddenly sounded like a bass again.
Sooooo glad I got that piece of kit, otherwise I would have ended up with a "plinky-plinky" bass sound, full of "definition". In other words, sounded like a de-tuned guitar with no guts. Of course will have to wait for the mixing/eq-ing, but, at least what I`ve recorded has the solid bottom end that my is bass playing.

Why oh why do people who record always get the guitarists set-up exactly as is used on stage, then do anything but use the bassists own gear to record with. Is it that they`re trying to cut corners, don`t know how to record bass properly, don`t regard the bass as an important part of the band, or all three?

Would be interested to hear opinions from others who`ve experienced similar situations.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='923556' date='Aug 13 2010, 10:11 AM']Why oh why do people who record always get the guitarists set-up exactly as is used on stage, then do anything but use the bassists own gear to record with. Is it that they`re trying to cut corners, don`t know how to record bass properly, don`t regard the bass as an important part of the band, or all three?

Would be interested to hear opinions from others who`ve experienced similar situations.[/quote]
Only if there is a good technical or sound aesthetics reason, should the recording staff - or other band members - ignore the requests of individual musicians as to how they get their sound into the desk for the recording. By all means demonstrate a better sound to a player if you can get one, but to wind up with a bass buzzsaw is unforgiveable.

Being told you couldn't be DI'd from your amp is just arrogant nonsense. You might be asked to set the amp flat, but even that should be just a request with an explanation as to why.

[ironside1966]

Lots of bass players record straight to the desk with a DI of course and get a great sound many modern amps are transparent giving a straight in to the desk sound but that sound doesn’t suit everybody the ideal way is a mixture of amp, cab and DI.
Where you short of time so he was rushing, was the engineer going to use an amp plug-in at a later date?
Why was the guitarist taking over what gave him grater knowledge over the engineer?
I would wait to pass judgment until you have heard the finished product.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='923866' date='Aug 13 2010, 01:45 PM']Lots of bass players record straight to the desk with a DI of course and get a great sound many modern amps are transparent giving a straight in to the desk sound but that sound doesn’t suit everybody the ideal way is a mixture of amp, cab and DI.
Where you short of time so he was rushing, was the engineer going to use an amp plug-in at a later date?
Why was the guitarist taking over what gave him grater knowledge over the engineer?
I would wait to pass judgment until you have heard the finished product.[/quote]
The engineer [b]was[/b] our guitarist. He has all the recording gear, and our aim was a recording of the band "live". Hence my irritation that if its a recording of the band playing live, why is it so important for one of the band members to not be using their own set-up?

My fears were based on having heard him tinker around with my Precision into Marshall Amp & Marshall 4x12 at rehearsals, when we`re all just messing abt in breaks. He arranges the eq so my setup sounds like a Jazz on the bridge pickup into a solid state 1x10, saying it cuts through. It does, but my style is laying a solid foundation for the guitar to sound great on top of, not to get in the guitars way. Think Cliff Williams of AC/DC style.

He was going to use plug-ins, no idea which, I wouldn`t have been consulted upon this either, but, bearing this, and the above in mind, I wanted to make sure that what was recorded sounded like me in the first place.

Might add, I would have been equally critical if the guitar sound/equipment recorded was not what we use live - as I said "live" recording says to me the band using their regular gear, just mixed.

[ironside1966]

My guess would be because of spillage in to the other Mics.
To get a good live recording you need a good sympathetic room and the instruments, cabs and mics placed so that the spillage compliments the recording, done well this sounds great but because of the fact you a limited to what you can do afterwards it takes a good band and a great engineer with experience or a lot of experimentations to get the microphones in the right place. So I would say that without the acoustics, time or experience using amp modeled should give better results but it is still down to the competence of the engineer
Having the gear doesn’t guarantee the skill to use it Some people learn how to do something one way and that’s how it stays.

To play the devil’s advocate though

A lot of musicians are focused on their sound not in the context of a band they just want a big sound but a band with every one having a big sound doesn’t sound huge it sound a bloody mess with most arrangements but I don’t get the impression this is you.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='923946' date='Aug 13 2010, 02:45 PM']My guess would be because of spillage in to the other Mics.
To get a good live recording you need a good sympathetic room and the instruments, cabs and mics placed so that the spillage compliments the recording, done well this sounds great but because of the fact you a limited to what you can do afterwards it takes a good band and a great engineer with experience or a lot of experimentations to get the microphones in the right place. So I would say that without the acoustics, time or experience using amp modeled should give better results but it is still down to the competence of the engineer
Having the gear doesn’t guarantee the skill to use it Some people learn how to do something one way and that’s how it stays.

To play the devil’s advocate though

A lot of musicians are focused on their sound not in the context of a band they just want a big sound but a band with every one having a big sound doesn’t sound huge it sound a bloody mess with most arrangements but I don’t get the impression this is you.[/quote]
Thanks for that observation. Yep, my aim when playing is really only to be noticed if I completely b*lls something up. This way I`m laying a solid foundation for the guitar and vocs to work over. This actually isn`t the sound I love, though, if I were to use the sound I actually love ...... well it would be Bruce Foxton from The Jams sound - but totally not required in my band - aside from when we play In The City & Eton Rifles that is. Or JJs sound from The Stranglers. But again, too much like "lead-bass" for my role in the band.

[Rimskidog]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='923946' date='Aug 13 2010, 02:45 PM']My guess would be because of spillage in to the other Mics.
To get a good live recording you need a good sympathetic room and the instruments, cabs and mics placed so that the spillage compliments the recording, done well this sounds great but because of the fact you a limited to what you can do afterwards it takes a good band and a great engineer with experience or a lot of experimentations to get the microphones in the right place. So I would say that without the acoustics, time or experience using amp modeled should give better results but it is still down to the competence of the engineer
Having the gear doesn’t guarantee the skill to use it Some people learn how to do something one way and that’s how it stays.

To play the devil’s advocate though

A lot of musicians are focused on their sound not in the context of a band they just want a big sound but a band with every one having a big sound doesn’t sound huge it sound a bloody mess with most arrangements but I don’t get the impression this is you.[/quote]

Spot on. It's not easy to either record or mix a decent sounding bass. You need a good room, amp and speakers, bass and player to start with. Then you need to use the right mics and place them carefully. If any one of these parts of the chain is weak it'll be heard in the ultimate product. That's before you even get to the mix.

One of the basic problems with many home recordists is that they think they can 'fix it in the mix'. They can't (or at the least it makes it harder not easier).