A spot of eBay trouble...

[Fiorenza2]

Hi all,

I recently purchased a bass through eBay, but as soon as I got it, I knew it just wasn't right for me. No worries, I thought, I'll just return it. After all, I got it from an eBay store with nearly 3000 feedback, and 100% positive for the last 12 months.

When I contacted the store regarding a return, they gave me strange response; either I retain it for a bit longer and then send it back so he can pay off some "huge" tax bill, or, I send it back now and he puts another eBay advert up for it, and then when it sells (for hopefully more than I payed for it), he refunds me in total. He also requests I pay a 10% handling charge on top of the postage.
After contacting the Office of Fair Trading about this, they told me the seller couldn't charge me 10% for the handling charge regardless of whether or not it was stated in the T's & C's. I proceeded to tell him this, and for about 2 days now he hasn't gotten back to me.

I also contacted eBay themselves, and their initial response was something ridiculous like "wait for the seller to contact you", whilst I had clearly stated that I had received a response from the seller and that it was unsatisfactory. I replied to eBay again, explaining my case in greater detail, and have yet to receive a response...

The bass in question is a 1991 Ibanez SR1000E in dark blue, and I (over)payed 400 quid for it...(It is in mint condition however)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to list who the seller is, and I'm not sure if it would help anyway. Having said this, he's got plenty of gear up for sale that is worth more than double the Ibanez, so surely it's irresponsible of him to trade whilst knowing he could not offer an immediate refund on most of his items?

Anyway, all I want is a refund on the bass ASAP, and not to have to pay anything that I don't need to, such as a 10% "Handling" charge. What I'm worried about is I either send the bass back, and get no money, or that I am stuck with a bass that I simply dislike.

I'm not really sure what to ask, so any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for reading,
Phil

[Sibob]

What was the sellers Returns policy listed in the advert?

Si

[stevie]

Here for reference: [url="http://www.out-law.com/page-430"]http://www.out-law.com/page-430[/url]

Make sure you cancel the contract unequivocally and in writing within 7 days. I'd send a letter recorded delivery to be on the safe side.

I don't think the seller's return policy is necessary relevant here if he is a trader.

Edited August 5, 2010 by stevie

[Beedster]

Was the sale an auction (sounds like it if the seller thinks someone may pay more if he re-lists it)? if so, distance selling regulations do not apply. Also, was the bass used? Again, this can complicate things ('91 model, I'd guess it is). You'll need to provide a bit more detail or a link to the sale if you want some advice. Ebay generally protect the buyer at the expense of the seller, so it would be unusual for you to have problems if the answer to both questions above is 'no'

C

[WILD FROG SHOT]

How long between receiving the bass and contacting the seller advising that you wanted to return it?

I'm pretty sure that legally you don't have to pay him anything, the maximum cost to you should be the P&P to send it back.

I wouldn't worry too much; I'd imagine once someone at ebay has properly read your latest message that they will help you get the ball rolling.

Edited August 5, 2010 by WILD FROG SHOT

[Gareth Hughes]

In my experience eBay are asking you to wait for the seller to respond (again) as they monitor any correspondence back and forth. I think they need the seller NOT to contact you for a certain number of days before they can step in (in the case that he's ignoring you). If he responds with less than helpful suggestions that's a different issue.

Hope that helps. Just keep eBay in the loop with everything ans keep asking them for what the next step should be.

[Fiorenza2]

Thanks for the responses!

Si, his returns policy was indeed listed, and it included the 10% handling charge as well as asking the buyer to pay for postage in case of a refund. However, according to the person I contacted at the Office of Fair Trading, the seller isn't allowed to charge the 10%, regardless whether or not he actually put in the policy. Shipping is entirely different though.

Thanks for the suggestion Steve! If I get no reply within 24 hours from the seller, I'll send the written letter just in case. Thanks for the link too, far more informative than the one from the OFT.

Sorry for not making it clear as to how the bass was sold. It was initially listed as a BIN or Best offer. The bass was originally up for £625(!) so I offered £400, and he accepted. The bass is in fact used, but I get the impression it was used a handful of times before being placed in a case and then forgotten about until recently, as it is in near mint condition (there is very slight wear around where you'd place your thumb on the neck pickup, which was there when I got it). I don't think I can link it, as it was made "Private". However, if anyone wants more detail, I'd be more than willing to provide it.

I contacted the seller roughly 3 days after I got the bass

TBH I'm keeping my fingers crossed at the moment. I'm just a bit surprised eBay hasn't really done anything yet... Hopefully that will change in due course.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you guys posted on any updates
Phil

Edited August 5, 2010 by Fiorenza2

[WILD FROG SHOT]

Is it worth more than £400? Maybe you could sell it on here and deal with some nice folks?

[Al Heeley]

OP said he (over)paid £400 so I would assume its actually a bit over-priced.
It's frustrating and stressful to be left in a situation like this, hope you get it resolved quickly.
I think payiong return postage is only fair but its not like he conned you into buying something not as advertised or not functioning correctly.
This is always the risk when buying ebay stuff, returning something to a real person in a shop is a lot more immediate.

[stevie]

[quote name='Beedster' post='915978' date='Aug 5 2010, 02:00 PM']Was the sale an auction (sounds like it if the seller thinks someone may pay more if he re-lists it)? if so, distance selling regulations do not apply.[/quote]
But look at this: [url="http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Distance-Selling-Regulations-And-eBay_W0QQugidZ10000000000140381"]http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Distance-Selling...000000000140381[/url]

[Beedster]

[quote name='stevie' post='916113' date='Aug 5 2010, 03:46 PM']But look at this: [url="http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Distance-Selling-Regulations-And-eBay_W0QQugidZ10000000000140381"]http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Distance-Selling...000000000140381[/url][/quote]

Yeh, but that's apparently written by an ebay member on a page on ebay, not a government document. The DSR states "contracts concluded at auction (although OFT guidance on the Regulations suggests that it must be a genuine auction in order to qualify for the exemption – "buy it now" slots on internet auction sites will not be exempt as such sales are not concluded by a process of auction).", which kinda suggests that an auction is exempt whilst a BIN isn't. As the regulations only apply to businesses anyway, that seems clear. Sorry to be a nerd on this but I had a bit of trouble when I bought a new but faulty amp via eBay a while back and had to use the DSR to get my money back.

Problem is, the O/P's situation is a bit clouded by the fact it was a best offer and not BIN, so frankly I have no idea whether that's technically an auction or a sale. Good luck to him either way

Edited August 5, 2010 by Beedster

[stevie]

[quote name='Beedster' post='916126' date='Aug 5 2010, 03:58 PM']Problem is, the O/P's situation is a bit clouded by the fact it was a best offer and not BIN, so frankly I have no idea whether that's technically an auction or a sale. Good luck to him either way [/quote]
I'd guess (because frankly, I don't know either) that a BIN is similar to making a best offer when you buy a car. You're not bidding against anyone like in an auction.

I've reached the conclusion that you should not bid any more on eBay than you can afford to lose. That limits me to about £150.

[gelfin]

If you used paypal to pay for the bass and have NOT yet left feedback, then paypal won't release the money to him until you do. Look to paypal to help you out. Even though they are owned/part of ebay.

[Cygnus x-1]

[quote name='gelfin' post='916453' date='Aug 5 2010, 10:02 PM']If you used paypal to pay for the bass and have NOT yet left feedback, then paypal won't release the money to him until you do. Look to paypal to help you out. Even though they are owned/part of ebay.[/quote]

Is ths true? I've sold stuff on ebay and if a buyer couldn't be bothered leaving feedback I still got the paypal money (I think).

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='Cygnus x-1' post='916520' date='Aug 5 2010, 10:52 PM']Is ths true? I've sold stuff on ebay and if a buyer couldn't be bothered leaving feedback I still got the paypal money (I think).[/quote]


It depends on your feedback or if you don't have feedback then it's 21 days or something before the money is released. However I suspect this guys money would have been released immediately due to his feedback.

You need to raise a claim if you want any action from the Seller. His Paypal account will automatically go into the red, owing £400 and he can't do anything until the case has been resolved.

In saying all of that though you must be a sellers worse nightmare. He described the item accurately and you chose to buy it. I'm not sure you'd win the dispute, just because it's not right for you. You yourself have said that the item is near mint so it's not the sellers fault, he's fulfilled his part of the deal.

Edited August 5, 2010 by PURPOLARIS

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Fiorenza2' post='915815' date='Aug 5 2010, 12:18 PM']Hi all,

I recently purchased a bass through eBay, but as soon as I got it, I knew it just wasn't right for me.[/quote]

In a shop you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Changing your mind is no reason at all to get a refund. Some shops do it just to keep your future custom but there's nothing in law to force them.
Don't know if buying online is any different.

[stevie]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='916548' date='Aug 5 2010, 11:22 PM']Don't know if buying online is any different.[/quote]
It is.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='Big_Stu' post='916548' date='Aug 5 2010, 11:22 PM']Don't know if buying online is any different.[/quote]

It is.
Distance Selling Regulations are there so you can change your mind. if you buy something from a shop, you have the chance to seeit, feel it, try it on etc. Buying via t'internet, you don't and that is why the DSR exists.

As an example a certain very well known shoe Chain will not refund on a pair of shoes bought in store, but buy via the web and you can gat a refund if you wish. No questions asked and you can take them to a local store for refund, thus saving P&P.

[WalMan]

I will probably get shouted at for this but I have some sympathy with the seller.

The suggestion from your original post (and follow up) was
[list]
[*]you offered 2/3 of the BIN
[*]He accepted and sent it to you
[*]You took one look and decided you didn't like it, not that there was anything actually wrong with it, and that you wanted to back out having metaphorically kicked the wheels
[/list]
Ebay can be a pain at times but I think if I was the seller I'd be a bit pi55ed off at being expected to take back something sold in good faith that the buyer decided was fine/as advertised but just not for him after all.

Yes there may be DSR's but.........

Just my 2p, and at the end of a SH177Y day so I may think better of this tomorrow

Edited August 6, 2010 by WalMan

[Beedster]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='916537' date='Aug 5 2010, 11:11 PM']In saying all of that though you must be a sellers worse nightmare. He described the item accurately and you chose to buy it. I'm not sure you'd win the dispute, just because it's not right for you. You yourself have said that the item is near mint so it's not the sellers fault, he's fulfilled his part of the deal.[/quote]


[quote name='WalMan' post='916592' date='Aug 6 2010, 01:04 AM']I will probably get shouted at for this but I have some sympathy with the seller.

The suggestion from your original post (and follow up) was
[list]
[*]you offered 2/3 of the BIN
[*]He accepted and sent it to you
[*]You took one look and decided you didn't like it, not that there was anything actually wrong with it, and that you wanted to back out having metaphorically kicked the wheels
[/list]
Ebay can be a pain at times but I think if I was the seller I'd be a bit pi55ed off at being expected to take back something sold in good faith that the buyer decided was fine/as advertised but just not for him after all.

Yes there may be DSR's but.........[/quote]

I agree with both of these, and this is why the DSRs may not apply to the above situation anyway. The seller has acted professionally, it was a used bass but as described, and it was not bought at BIN price. The seller should be under no obligation to accept a return in such circumstances. If I buy a bass or amp that is as described and don't like it (and let's face it, it's happened!), it's up to me to resolve the situation by selling it on, perhaps at a loss.

C

[cheddatom]

"the seller" is an Ebay Store. If I order a pair of shoes online as in the above example, I want to be able to return them if they don't fit. If I order a bass, from a shop, and I don't like it when it arrives, why should I not be able to return it? How do you know if you like a bass without playing it?

I'm sure this will provoke the usual "well you should buy in a shop then" - so shall we make online stores illegal?

[Beedster]

Fair points Tom. However, whatever the rights and wrongs, if the buyer wants to use the DSR he has a limited time to do so (I think 7 days from receipt of the bass). Arguing that he was sitting around waiting for eBay to respond to his emails will not be considered an excuse if he misses that deadline.

C

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Beedster' post='916686' date='Aug 6 2010, 09:05 AM']Fair points Tom. However, whatever the rights and wrongs, if the buyer wants to use the DSR he has a limited time to do so (I think 7 days from receipt of the bass). Arguing that he was sitting around waiting for eBay to respond to his emails will not be considered an excuse if he misses that deadline.

C[/quote]

Yeh, and I read your link about DSR it was most informative thanks!

[KevB]

I once bought a bass via the net, brand new and soon realised it wasn't my cup of tea (it was a model that wasn't kept in any local music stores) but I never considered sending it back. It was bought by me in good faith and it wasn't faulty, my decision. I sold it on at a loss and put it down to experience. Not what the OP wants to hear but that's what was best for my peace of mind.

Edited August 6, 2010 by KevB

[thepurpleblob]

It would probably help to see the ebay page concerned. However, this is simple. IF the seller is a trader you have 7 days to return the item (I expect that this means tell the seller that you wish to return it but this seems a vague point). Return is at YOUR expense but they must refund the original posting. They can't charge a restocking fee. As far as I know Ebay is not recognised in the UK (for legal purposes) as being an auction (like if you bought a sideboard down the local furniture auction) so whether it was BIN, an Ebay Auction or something else is irrelevant. If you did this and they didn't play ball then you make a formal complaint to the office of fair trading. If you didn't then tough. If they are not a trader then tough.

....unless anybody knows different. As usual.

Edited August 6, 2010 by thepurpleblob