Advice please...

[Bloodaxe]

I've recently tabbed/transcribed the bass line to Louis Jordan's "Let The Good Times Roll" & assumed it was in 12/8 as it's a swinger. The way it all slotted in rather neatly seemed to confirm this. All good.

However... It seems that this was originally arranged by Quincy Jones in 4/4, which is a bit of a bugger as that means I have to re-score the whole thing to correct it - attempts at auto-correction in TuxGuitar leave it a mess of tied notes & whatnot. Understandable, but still an arse. Heigh-ho, we learn etc.

Anyway, I've done the deed on the first 12 bars & would appreciate some feedback from you reading types as to whether it looks acceptable or a dog's breakfast before pressing on with the rest of it. If the latter, please feel free to adjust it so I know for the future.

Thus:



If it's of any help I can convert it into Guitar Pro, Lilypond, Midi, or MusicXML formats.

Next question. How do you distinguish between 4/4 with triplets and 12/8 with dotted notes? They both swing.

Pete.

[Vesalius]

"How do you distinguish between 4/4 with triplets and 12/8 with dotted notes?"
The two examples you gave would sound the same.

You don't - all reading is just "processing" whatever you're looking at, and the clearer you can write it down, the easier (and so faster) the player "realise" it.

12/8 was just a way of writing music out, that was essentially in 4/4, with a lot of the beats split into 3.
The old way is to write in 4/4 and bracket 3 quavers together and write a small 3 over the top.
But if there's a lot of beats like this, they just used to write out an opening bar with little 3s and then write "sim" (=similar) over the top.
Then composers got fed-up with this and started to write in 12/8.
With the rise of "swing" music in 1920s,30s,40s etc., time really was money, so arrangements had to be done fast.
So they would write in 4/4, and at the top of the page write:

dotted quaver +quaver =crotchet + quaver, (ie. 3+1 of a beat = 2+1), and then write the direction "Swing."
(wish I knew how to type "notes" on this keyboard-inputting device...Hmm...)

This was quickly caught on, and I'm pretty sure Quincy Jones would have been familiar with it - and used it.
I think that's most like what you would see if you saw QJs score for "let The Good Times Roll."

What you wrote is fine, and you would get it from any ("reading") bass player - whichever version (4/4, 12/8) he read.
...It would sound the same.

Finally, it seems to me that music written down is only an approximation of the original sound heard, for the benefit of others to play -(or hopefully to pay us- sometime!).
I think it's a clumsy system because it gives rise to to uncertainties...as you high-lighted.
But in a thousand years nobody has come up with anything better. But it's still evolving.
One of the most recent changes when writing chord progressions is to Always use CAPITALS for Chords, and "lower case" for notes.
So, a chord of A major with c# in the bass is written as A/c# not... A/C#.
It's much easier to process and gets rid of some confusion.
It also makes reading compound harmony much simpler and "safer" and is independent of the key.
eg. BbMaj7/c

Does this shed some light...or have I generated even more Heat?

Cheers,
V.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='Vesalius' post='918724' date='Aug 8 2010, 01:32 PM']"How do you distinguish between 4/4 with triplets and 12/8 with dotted notes?"
The two examples you gave would sound the same.
You don't - all reading is just "processing" whatever you're looking at, and the clearer you can write it down, the easier (and so faster) the player "realise" it.

<snip>

What you wrote is fine, and you would get it from any ("reading") bass player - whichever version (4/4, 12/8) he read.
...It would sound the same.[/quote]
Phew & Hurrah! I was hoping for that kind of answer tbh. For me the 12/8 version presents an inherently cleaner page, which must surely aid reading.

[quote name='Vesalius' post='918724' date='Aug 8 2010, 01:32 PM']Finally, it seems to me that music written down is only an approximation of the original sound heard, for the benefit of others to play -(or hopefully to pay us- sometime!).[/quote]
Agreed. One thing I have picked up on when transcribing this stuff is that notation isn't enough to translate the nuances that make a performance what it is. I reckon it would be possible to allow for these, but you'd end up with a "Black Page" plastered with dotted 64th rests & who knows what else. Swing drummers don't stick to the meter either - each bar subtly varies in length. (Anyone who doesn't believe this... open a tune in a sound editor & add cue lines for each bar. We can all count, so the cues should be pretty accurate, but you'll see what I mean). The Tempo instruction really ought to have ± x% after it.

[quote name='Vesalius' post='918724' date='Aug 8 2010, 01:32 PM']One of the most recent changes when writing chord progressions is to Always use CAPITALS for Chords, and "lower case" for notes.
So, a chord of A major with c# in the bass is written as A/c# not... A/C#.
It's much easier to process and gets rid of some confusion.
It also makes reading compound harmony much simpler and "safer" and is independent of the key. eg. BbMaj7/c[/quote]
I understood most of the individual words in that paragraph...

[quote name='Vesalius' post='918724' date='Aug 8 2010, 01:32 PM']Does this shed some light...or have I generated even more Heat?

Cheers,
V.[/quote]
Definitely illuminating. Many thanks.
All I'm aiming for is a pretty accurate representation of what got played, & the subtleties are down to the individual. Looks like I'm not making a Pig's Ear of it. FWIW I doubt Wendell Marshall had a score plunked in front of him on the day, maybe just a chord lead-sheet. He'd been with Jordan for a good while so would know what was needed. The Plumbing Dept. might have been scripted though.

Here's a bad copy of a scan of a part of (allegedly) QJ's arrangement for the dreadful Stevie Wonder/Bono/Ray Charles version posted in one of my threads on Talkbass:



I take it that the C in a square is another way of writing Common Time?

Pete.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Bloodaxe

[velvetkevorkian]

In this case I would probably go with 12/8, but the main issue for me is that neither is particularly clear- the triplets in the 4/4 version are hard to see and the dotted crotchets in the 12/8 version are hard to make out- I assume this is just a quirk of TuxGuitar's notation?

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='918751' date='Aug 8 2010, 02:14 PM']Here's a bad copy of a scan of a part of (allegedly) QJ's arrangement for the dreadful Stevie Wonder/Bono/Ray Charles version posted in one of my threads on Talkbass:



I take it that the C in a square is another way of writing Common Time?

Pete.[/quote]

The C in a square indicates the section of the tune. If you notice the first bar is actually bar 49.

[GonzoBass]

Yes, those letters in the boxes are "rehearsal letters".
As in;
"Okay band, we're going to take it from rehearsal letter C"
and in this case everyone would begin playing at bar 49,
which probably marks the beginning of a verse, a chorus or a solo section.

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='918778' date='Aug 8 2010, 02:56 PM']In this case I would probably go with 12/8, but the main issue for me is that neither is particularly clear- the triplets in the 4/4 version are hard to see and the dotted crotchets in the 12/8 version are hard to make out- I assume this is just a quirk of TuxGuitar's notation?[/quote]
Quirks? You don't know the half of it!

I spent a good half-hour in Illustrator "fixing" Tux's PDF. The note stems were 0.06pt (0.02mm) wide (the same as the stave lines), the stops were vestigial & it has a deeply unpleasant habit of losing the demi-tail on an 8th/16th combination. I also cut off the tab, as it wasn't relevant here. I'm stuck with the triplets though.

I'll guess that its PDF conversion engine revolves around the open-source Ghostscript, & that GS and Adobe Acrobat don't see eye-to-eye. I'm assured that it'll print hard copy directly just fine however. And it's free.

A workaround is to use an additional free application called Lilypond. That kind of goes the other way for me & tends towards clutter, though it makes a better fist of the triplets than Tux, shows the stops clearly and shifts the dot a little further away from the note head. It's capable of making a royal mess of text though.

Here's the 4/4 version as per Liliypond:



I do like the timing info it gives in the tab - it'll show dotted notes there as well. I'd like a bit of a combination of the two programs - Lily's 'formality' plus Tux's configurability would be very useful.

Thanks to Doddy & Gonzo for the Rehearsal Part nomenclature tip.

Pete.

[Annoying Twit]

I can't understand why anyone would want to write this out in 4/4 time. To me, it looks like a fairly stereotypical 12/8 timed piece. There are a number of bars with four beats - equally simple in 4/4 or 12/8, then there are the bars with three beats, and a crotchet and quaver - with 12/8 timing interpreting that as one beat. To me, the 4/4 example looks incredibly contrived. So, if there's one way of writing it that's incredibly confusing, and one way that's simple and straightforward, why not use the simple one?

I'd say that in this situation, the way to distinguish between 4/4 and 12/8 is that one time signature makes it easy to describe what is being played, and the other doesn't. Just my opinion though.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Bloodaxe' post='919001' date='Aug 8 2010, 08:03 PM']Quirks? You don't know the half of it!

I spent a good half-hour in Illustrator "fixing" Tux's PDF. The note stems were 0.06pt (0.02mm) wide (the same as the stave lines), the stops were vestigial & it has a deeply unpleasant habit of losing the demi-tail on an 8th/16th combination. I also cut off the tab, as it wasn't relevant here. I'm stuck with the triplets though.

I'll guess that its PDF conversion engine revolves around the open-source Ghostscript, & that GS and Adobe Acrobat don't see eye-to-eye. I'm assured that it'll print hard copy directly just fine however. And it's free.

A workaround is to use an additional free application called Lilypond. That kind of goes the other way for me & tends towards clutter, though it makes a better fist of the triplets than Tux, shows the stops clearly and shifts the dot a little further away from the note head. It's capable of making a royal mess of text though.

Here's the 4/4 version as per Liliypond:



I do like the timing info it gives in the tab - it'll show dotted notes there as well. I'd like a bit of a combination of the two programs - Lily's 'formality' plus Tux's configurability would be very useful.

Thanks to Doddy & Gonzo for the Rehearsal Part nomenclature tip.

Pete.[/quote]


Writing in Jazz can get complicated - if its a 4 to the bar thing [or 2 to the bar] use 4/4 [ or cut time] and
abb at the start of the part - IE Swing 8's etc.
Another way would be to use dotted 8th note with a 16th at the end.
This is usually the way you will see it written on gigs.
12/8 can be used, but very rarely.That would be good for shuffle blues etc.

Possibly this way
[attachment=56090:Good_Times_Roll.pdf]

Or this Way.Or a combination of both.
[attachment=56094:Good_Times_Roll_2.pdf]

12/8 Version as well. [ looks more like a 60's pop tune to me, and not swing like.. ]
[attachment=56096:Good_Tim...oll_12_8.pdf]




If you play Jazz charts on a regular basis both ways would look familiar.
It gets a bit more articulated when writing Big Band charts, especially horn parts - adding duplets,
and straight 16's etc.

Jazz is about swing & feel, not reading [b]literally[/b] , so its always going to be harder for a novice reader to grasp Jazz reading.
The old timers with beards - Erh... a different matter....Bilbo...!




Garry

Edited August 8, 2010 by lowdown

[Vesalius]

Just quickly - IMHO, in the example given, the a# in bar 6 is a musical spelling mistake.
The harmony implied by bars 5+6 is clearly C7, and the a# should be written as bb.
Altho' essentially a monophonic instrument, the bass does create the foundation for All the harmony, and having a sense of what chord is being used can be very helpful to the player.
...erm...if that's Ok with you?

V.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Vesalius' post='919139' date='Aug 8 2010, 10:59 PM']Just quickly - IMHO, in the example given, the a# in bar 6 is a musical spelling mistake.
The harmony implied by bars 5+6 is clearly C7, and the a# should be written as bb.
Altho' essentially a monophonic instrument, the bass does create the foundation for All the harmony, and having a sense of what chord is being used can be very helpful to the player.
...erm...if that's Ok with you?

V.[/quote]


I agree with adding chord symbols, for solo sections you dont want to be playing the same thing round & around.
Although this tune is pretty basic chord wise.



Garry

Edited August 8, 2010 by lowdown

[witterth]

"Well" (as Bill Hicks used to say..) " looks like we got ourselves a reader.... whut ya readin' fur?"

Bill: "well,maybe so as I dont end up as a (insert good gag here................)

[Bloodaxe]

[quote name='witterth' post='919151' date='Aug 8 2010, 11:20 PM']"Well" (as Bill Hicks used to say..) " looks like we got ourselves a reader.... whut ya readin' fur?"

Bill: "well,maybe so as I dont end up as a (insert good gag here................)[/quote]

I won't go [i]that[/i] far just yet. I doubt I'm even at the 'Janet & John' stage (& I don't mean the video either ).

The first thing I'm getting to grips with is the timing. [i]i.e.[/i] The Maths - Making a phrase that I can play almost without thinking fit neatly on the stave whilst sounding right to my ears. I (perhaps foolishly) thought that some of the Blues/R&B/R 'n' R standards would be a good way in for me. I love all that stuff & learn best when I have a practical application.

What I didn't expect was (a) the level of respect for these guys that I'm developing, and (2) that doing this would impact on my playing. I now conciously step back a bit & try to keep things simple, whilst still adding enough variation to keep things interesting. I also didn't expect to find tabbing/transcribing Willie Dixon's part in Johnny B. Goode the uphill task it has become

I also feel that there's a 'gap in the market' for this sort of stuff. Many players will assert that Blues is mostly "just" a I-IV-V with a bassline that goes R-3-5-6-8 with a chromatic link to the change, & I felt it'd be handy to have some moderately accurate takes on what really goes on down there. Greater accuracy will hopefully come of its own accord as I carry on.

One day I may even understand the difference between A# & Bb, but it won't be today. Same with chords - for me to get a good handle on that I'd be best served by taking up a chordal instrument, but I doubt I'd get a C3 & a couple of Leslies up the stairs.

P.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Bloodaxe