Bilbo's campaign for the elimination of bad jazz...

[Bilbo]

As I keep saying, this is not elitism. I will play with people who are developing but I think there should be a bottom line before which you shouldn't be allowed out. And some of these guys had not reached it.

If you went into surgery and the Doc was sat there with a 'heart ops for beginners' manual, you'd run a mile. If your solicitor in Court told you he wasn't experienced and was just 'having a go', you'd freak. But, where music is concerned, people seem to think anyone should be able to have go. I have no problem with them trying it on, doing gigs at family parties or whatever but, for me, it reflects badly on the participants, however good they may be as individuals. I walked away because it was hurting my soul; making me sad. I am not arrogant enough to think I am the dogs b's, but I know I can do better and shouldn't collude with this charade.

For the record, do you want to know who took the gig over after me? Mick Hutton.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='920167' date='Aug 9 2010, 10:48 PM']I'm hinting towards what it is that drives you to satisfaction in music.[/quote]

All I want is to see a job well done, Jake. We all have bad nights and learn to bounce back but when the musicians you are going to play with are so bad that the gig will inevitably be crap, it is a different matter. To be blunt, I even began to think that the gig was doing me harm: 'that's the bass player with that crap band' kind of thing. It was certainly undermining my self confidence - intellectually, I knew it wasn't my fault but, emotionally, over time, it eats away at your self esteem. I could play anything if it was decent. I could even play crap stuff for one or two gigs or a week long show, its when your diary is full of gigs that you KNOW are going to be crap, you've got to ask yourself is it worth it?

[chris_b]

I agree that playing with bad players can drag you down. But the problem is getting better players to want to play with you. It's a vicious circle. In order to stay "match fit" you've got to be playing and if you're not playing you're playing catch up on the gig, which is not a good thing!

Can't you just fire the worst player and make your current band better?

[Bilbo]

No - the worst player is the bandleader. I play with great people all of the time and I have gigs that are pretty cool (not on video, alas) and a real buzz so I have chosen to focus my energies there and not on maintaining someone's delusion. I have a close drummer friend who recently depped for them (without me) and he has said he will never do it again. Its the psychology of bad gigs - I find them harmful if they come too often.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='920028' date='Aug 9 2010, 08:32 PM'][/quote]
Oi you lot - stop it.

Sulks and slopes off to the Roles-Royce for a kip on the back seat whilst the chauffeur takes me to Betty's for profiterolls, the fishmongers for role-mop herring, and the doctors to look at me ear-rolls.

Edited August 10, 2010 by ShergoldSnickers

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='920916' date='Aug 10 2010, 07:24 PM']Oi you lot - stop it.

Sulks and slopes off to the Roles-Royce for a kip on the back seat whilst the chauffeur takes me to Betty's for profiteroles, the fishmongers for role-mop herring, and the doctors to look at me ear-rolls. [/quote]

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='920167' date='Aug 9 2010, 10:48 PM']I agree that your vids were pretty poor but tbh £600 is not a lot for a function band (you get what you pay for...) we had a decent fee and accommodation (more than double) for that gig as it was in the west country me and the horn being London(ish) piano, drums, vox from Manchester.
I understand your point about my vid being fine but my question was would you be happy doing it? I enjoy it because the guys are really good so the genre matters less to me. What I'm getting at in my question is that being pro means that if you struggle to get on in a gig like that then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I just feel blessed to have a bass in my hands at work so will do gigs like that very happily.
I'm hinting towards what it is that drives you to satisfaction in music.[/quote]

Good post again, Jake. Spot on.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='920047' date='Aug 9 2010, 08:50 PM']It was a rock band that had its faults but it was ok and sounded like a rock band. It was rehearsed and it was tight (I was 17, the rest of the band were 30+). We did a Radio One session three months later so it couldn't have been that bad.

Seriously, though. Check this out and tell me I am wrong.

The piano solo at 1.00 is a doozy.


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrhE5ARc_w&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrhE5ARc_w...feature=related[/url]

This is even better...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2fl1_kqsas&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2fl1_kqsas&NR=1[/url][/quote]

"Don't just play something - STAND THERE!" (Apologies to the memory of Mr Peter Ustinov)

[Pete Academy]

It's bad drummers that bother me.

[Doddy]

I do kind of agree with Bilbo about players playing out before they are ready. My first gig was given to me after I
was recommended to the band by a friend who is a pro keys player.Likewise my first theatre show was depping for
my then teacher. These guys must have thought I was ready for the work otherwise they wouldn't have recommended
me. Before that I'd spent a long time practising and doing occasional things with mates,but never playing out because I didn't
feel that I was ready,and was very nervous.
As far as Jazz goes,before I took a jazz gig I was invited to a regular jazz jam at a guys house.I was the youngest one there
by many years(three of the players have since died ),but they were all retired pro's who would write new charts each week and we'd
just play for hours-mostly standards. They all took the time to give me advise about playing and it really kicked my ass. I then started
sitting in on some tunes with a quartet at the Jazz night at Keele Uni (again,all pro players),and was eventually offered a dep with them
before subsequently taking over the bass chair all the time.So once again,I studied and practised hard so I was ready for when the gigs came.
I really don't think that people like putting the work in now,and consequently many are out of their depth when they start playing out,
and are happy to stay within a very small circle of players who will blow smoke up their arse and say how great they are regardless of their
own short comings. Sure everyone starts out weak,but you can gain playing experience away from the stage if you look outside your
comfort zone.
Of course,sometimes you have to play with below par players,but you just grin and bear it. You never know what may come out of it
at a later date,and like I said earlier,it's better than working in McDonalds.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Doddy' post='920939' date='Aug 10 2010, 07:46 PM']....Of course,sometimes you have to play with below par players,but you just grin and bear it. You never know what may come out of it
at a later date,and like I said earlier,it's better than working in McDonalds....[/quote]
This is true, good things can come out of bad bands. I've got several great projects out of one of the worse bands I've been with for years, through the well connected drummer!

And any gig is definitely better than McDonalds.

[gnasher1993]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='919738' date='Aug 9 2010, 03:53 PM']I'd recommended the following for you to try out: The new Phronesis album 'Alive' is simply astounding - beautifully recorded and the craftsmanship is incredible.[/quote]

This is the best album I've listened to all year. I saw them perform at Brecon Jazz festival on Saturday and it was great.

My favourite track is "Abraham's New Gift". The bass playing is some of the best I've heard, Hoiby has some serious skill.

It's definitely an album that's worth listening to, especially as a bass player or a composer.

[witterth]

You know, trawling through this makes me realise what a bunch of anally obsessed "self interested" bunch of door handlers we can be at times.
so, somebody gets it wrong, a "bit", at times,isn't that good, or, any good at all,useless totally totally rubbish, well. good.....nobody DIED!!
its music!! and if its not the best so what??
don't compare it to medicine/ surgery its not the same.....its not.....NEVER will be, if a doctor played a Bflat when it should have been a natural, who'd ever care? if he/she put the wrong tie in the wrong vien during surgery, it not just "oops" is it?

again, Sssheeh

I love this stuff, I suppose the fact I'm not that good makes me so defensive!!

Ahh Well...Ha ha...

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='witterth' post='921172' date='Aug 11 2010, 12:41 AM']You know, trawling through this makes me realise what a bunch of anally obsessed "self interested" bunch of door handlers we can be at times.
so, somebody gets it wrong, a "bit", at times,isn't that good, or, any good at all,useless totally totally rubbish, well. good.....nobody DIED!!
its music!! and if its not the best so what??
don't compare it to medicine/ surgery its not the same.....its not.....NEVER will be, if a doctor played a Bflat when it should have been a natural, who'd ever care? if he/she put the wrong tie in the wrong vien during surgery, it not just "oops" is it?

again, Sssheeh

I love this stuff, I suppose the fact I'm not that good makes me so defensive!!

Ahh Well...Ha ha...[/quote]
Excellent point, though I may think a bit differently if it was my living. When I play live it's inevitably to financially benefit others rather than ourselves - we do it for the fun of it all not the money, the money going to a cause, the venue or just some of the costs. We can afford to be sloppy, unprofessional and rather more uneducated in the intricacies of well crafted music than can Bilbo.

Being objective, the improvised stuff we do contains:

Time wandering
Miss-timing
Tendency towards 'modal' playing rather then a series of chord progressions with inventive key changes
Over-reliance on technology at times
Goes on too long sometimes
I could go on... and on...

The point is that we enjoy doing this stuff - it's not a chore, we are learning, every 'performance' is different, and we have a following that's building up. The fact they are all deranged inadequates similar to ourselves is neither here nor there, they applaud in the right places.

For professional musicians, I can fully see what Bilbo is pointing out. For the amateur, generally non-paid - that's my band - the audience understands they won't get virtuoso ensemble playing, but on a very good night we can make something that sounds a bit like it.

[witterth]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='921255' date='Aug 11 2010, 08:22 AM']Excellent point, though I may think a bit differently if it was my living. When I play live it's inevitably to financially benefit others rather than ourselves - we do it for the fun of it all not the money, the money going to a cause, the venue or just some of the costs. We can afford to be sloppy, unprofessional and rather more uneducated in the intricacies of well crafted music than can Bilbo.

Being objective, the improvised stuff we do contains:

Time wandering
Miss-timing
Tendency towards 'modal' playing rather then a series of chord progressions with inventive key changes
Over-reliance on technology at times
Goes on too long sometimes
I could go on... and on...

The point is that we enjoy doing this stuff - it's not a chore, we are learning, every 'performance' is different, and we have a following that's building up. The fact they are all deranged inadequates similar to ourselves is neither here nor there, they applaud in the right places.

For professional musicians, I can fully see what Bilbo is pointing out. For the amateur, generally non-paid - that's my band - the audience understands they won't get virtuoso ensemble playing, but on a very good night we can make something that sounds a bit like it.[/quote]
Yes Mr S, correct.
and I guess I was a little "refreshed" when I made that point, so its largley a lot of 'auld toss.Had I been down the BC arms(?)
but the thing is pro or otherwise, its just not nice to be mean to people. and I'll scream and sream and scream and scream 'till I'm sick (and I can, you know) 'till you all agree I'm right......phewww
sorry guys & mainly to Bil
Peace...
W
Im oot

Edited August 11, 2010 by witterth

[Bilbo]

[quote name='witterth' post='921172' date='Aug 11 2010, 12:41 AM']You know, trawling through this makes me realise what a bunch of anally obsessed "self interested" bunch of door handlers we can be at times.
so, somebody gets it wrong, a "bit", at times,isn't that good, or, any good at all,useless totally totally rubbish, well. good.....nobody DIED!!
its music!! and if its not the best so what??
don't compare it to medicine/ surgery its not the same.....its not.....NEVER will be, if a doctor played a Bflat when it should have been a natural, who'd ever care? if he/she put the wrong tie in the wrong vien during surgery, it not just "oops" is it?

again, Sssheeh

I love this stuff, I suppose the fact I'm not that good makes me so defensive!!

Ahh Well...Ha ha...[/quote]

So caring about the quality of what we do is being anally obsessive. Not caring is amatuerish and potentailly destructive. Of course, you can care and still be crap but then, if you had any level of integrity, you woudl remain in the rehearsal room until you got better. But the lure of the bright lights and the reflected glory of being in a band is too much to manage for people. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the people who were laughing at the previously mentioned gig (a village hall in Suffolk) had be throwing things (Tonypandy Royal Naval Club). The public (and often the landlords/commitees/customers) are too polite to complain but they certainly don't come back.

I am not talking about people getting it wrong a bit. I am talking about people getting it wrong a LOT. All night, from the first beat of the first bar till the last chord fades out. We need some quality control, people, or the whole thing dies.

Nobody died? No, but some people were psychologically harmed in the making of those videos.

My point is, how many times would you put up with poor workmanship in your colleagues (ina nay field) before you said 'no'. I have reached that point. Why should I respect them (as musicians) when they don't respect me or the music by learning to do it properly? I am talking core skills here, not virtuosity. Doddy paid his dues the way real musician do. His story is similar to mine and most musicians who are cutting it. Earn your wings before you fly in public. Amateurs belong in jam sessions and workshop bands not on proper gigs. If you are any good, the tutors spot you, word gets out and the phone starts to ring but you need to be ready to deliver at least at a competent level. Screwing up in public is not good for anyone, least of all those who are screwing up. YOU ARE BEING LAUGHED AT. The delusional think they are 'living the dream' whilst the people around them are thinking 'kn*b' .

What is interesting here, sociologically and psychologically, is the number of people who have pm'd me to say they agree but won't say so in public because they don't want to look bad. I respect their privacy but its symptomatic of the issue. They watch, they listen, they wince, then smile and go home and the 'offenders' are allowed to reoffend repeatedly.

[Bilbo]

I also like that 'its not nice to be mean to people' thing....

Its also not nice to let your friends make fools of themselves in public oblivious to the fact that they are doing so. Would you let your closest friend go onto Britains Got Talent if you KNEW they were going to bomb? Some would. I wouldn't.

[molan]

Hey Bilbo - you have inspired me!

I've been close to joining a few bands over recent months but have (for reasons I won't go into here, given the 'public' nature of the forum) decided against them.

However, having listened to the various discusions about setting the bar higher I was galvanised last night to discuss forming a wholly new band with a very good guitarist friend of mine. We both have very similar views on standards of professionalism & performance skills and had a really good natter about we'd like to see in any band that we might both be part of.

We've vaguely nattered about doing this before but sat on the fence about really making a go of it. We've now both decided we're definitely going to try and work hard at something - just need to find a drummer & singer who share the same views / ambitions now

I'll keep you posted. . .

[witterth]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='921541' date='Aug 11 2010, 01:00 PM']I also like that 'its not nice to be mean to people' thing....

Its also not nice to let your friends make fools of themselves in public oblivious to the fact that they are doing so. WOudl you let your closet friend go onto Britains Got Talent if you KNEW they were going to bomb? Some would. I wouldn't.[/quote]
OOOh god, I've made you really cross haven't I? [size=1]sorry[/size]

(not a piss take, didnt mean to!)

I know, I know,...(looks at floor) and replies: "dont know sir, sorry sir"

I just dont take things that seriously..
and that isnt meant as a "reposte"
and your point remains valid, even if I have overlooked it.
reading what you say Bil, I take it as just, a "keen up" to myself eh?
lets not fight darling (as Ive said before)
BtW any one who has PM'd Bilbo cos they agree, but dont want the "fallout"
you spineless Buggers!! ( oh....come on now J, FOR JOKE!!!)
Still a good thread... no one has PM'd me to support my point of view so I know I'm in the wrong
I'll get 'me coat.....

Edited August 11, 2010 by witterth

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='920094' date='Aug 9 2010, 09:31 PM']I wonder what you think of this Bilbo?
yours truly on a twenties gig, what I love about this gig is how the guys just play it right, they are all good players in my view and do what is right for the gig each of them is capable of playing very convincingly in a myriad of settings.
I get your point regarding quality but I get the feeling you'd not like to do this gig? am I wrong?

[/quote]

Charleston fusion. The drummer is too syncopated and the pianist is playing late 20c style licks. The drumkit is a post 50s setup.

OP's post is motivated by art. Performing in a professional context is not all art, it is work and public entertainment - perhaps public amusement, as in the charleston fusion above.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='witterth' post='921565' date='Aug 11 2010, 01:20 PM']OOOh god, I've made you really cross haven't I? [size=1]sorry[/size]
([/quote]

Don't give it a second thought, w !! I am a Probation Officer! If I haven't been called a W***er at least once a day, I probably haven't done my job properly !!

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='921631' date='Aug 11 2010, 02:17 PM']Don't give it a second thought, w !! I am a Probation Officer![/quote]

Cripes.

Are you sure your bandmates aren't messing up because the prospect of breaching their parole conditions and being sent back down makes them so nervous they can't play?

Cripes m'lud, was that really a flat five? Nyhow, it were him what dunnit.

Edited August 11, 2010 by fatback

[Bilbo]

[quote name='fatback' post='921640' date='Aug 11 2010, 02:25 PM']Are you sure your bandmates aren't messing up because the prospect of breaching their parole conditions and being sent back down makes them so nervous they can't play?[/quote]

If that were possible, the prisons would be in even deeper trouble than they already are

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='921506' date='Aug 11 2010, 12:34 PM']...Doddy paid his dues the way real musician do. His story is similar to mine and most musicians who are cutting it. Earn your wings before you fly in public. Amateurs belong in jam sessions and workshop bands not on proper gigs. If you are any good, the tutors spot you, word gets out and the phone starts to ring but you need to be ready to deliver at least at a competent level. Screwing up in public is not good for anyone......[/quote]

Mmmm? Not sure about the amateurs comment, I know a lot of very competent amateurs....but I guess you mean poor players??" And I wish it was as simple as "your tutor spots you, you get recommended and the phone starts ringing...."
I have a weird belief that screwing up in public can be good for you, as long as you learn from it and you are given the chance to redeem yourself. I like to see a student make a cock up in public, and see how they handle it, how they react, how it affects their attitude to practice/performance. It also can keep the humility levels at a reasonable level. I wouldn't expect them to be vilified, or chucked out.
But all this "room" to fall over, dust yourself down, get up and improve only happens in the context of working with experienced/more competent players who have done the same and improved as a result.

Really surprised at PM's about the thread tho'...I thought the forum was to post what you thought....then run off and sulk when you don't like the answer...it's what i do anyway ??

Anyway, love your passion Bilbo for what it's worth, and I reckon that I agree with the sentiment....just don't quite hit the same bar on a couple of the finer points.

John

[Bilbo]

Dropping the odd note, losing your place in So What, speeding up or slowing down - all grist to the mill. All of those, all night, is less indefensible.