Bilbo's campaign for the elimination of bad jazz...

[fatback]

I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon

Edited August 11, 2010 by fatback

[Doddy]

[quote name='fatback' post='921808' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM']I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon [/quote]

I know it was originally about jazz,but I think that it's relevant in all kinds of music.

[Pete Academy]

I think Bilbo's post is a brave one, and will inevitably bring out the 'you're a snob' comments.

I've been playing and gigging for over 35 years. I've done hundreds of gigs and put in hundreds of hours of playing and practice. OK, so I'm not a pro player, but I value my ability and time spent to get to where I am. Should I tolerate bad players?

I've paid my dues. I've seen enough mediocre bands get away with murder, take the money, and run.

Would it be tolerated in other trades?

[MoonBassAlpha]

This is a great thread, it has made me think about one of the bands I'm currently playing with quite hard.
I'm certainly no pro, but have played in bands, always originals, for years and know my place and function pretty well.
The guitarist/Singer's voice is too quiet for live, the guitaring tends to the pentatonic, the songs have no noticable arrangements, and the drummer, while technically good, doesn't listen that well and plays too loudly. I'm not mad about half the material either!
It sounds like a bit of a nightmare, but I'm doing it to keep my hand in, as my other band does almost nothing at the moment.
I can totally get the "feeling a bit sh*t by association" thing Bilbo.

Thoughts, anyone?

By the way, I was once in a jazz band (our set list was almost everything on Bilbo's "pet hates" list in another thread). I can't play jazz, I found it just too hard technically, and we were mostly terrible in jazz terms.
The disappointing thing is, we played at Brent town hall providing background music for a large dinner, and of about 600 people there, not one came up to us and said how sh*t we were!

[fatback]

I agree wholeheartedly; it is a good thread.

But if it's not just about jazz, then something else may be worth mentioning - showbiz

Not all music is 'art music'. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of very ambitious music, but I also like, in a live context, a band that plays to give themselves and the crowd a good time. And that's not all about the music. The spirit matters, the presentation matters, the rapport counts for a lot too. Sometimes chaos is exciting (at the right time). Not all gigs are in concert halls.

A band with musical flaws but performance strengths can be well worth the effort. But when it stops being fun, for whatever reason, then stop, unless you need the money, and that's a whole other ballgame. Most of us do things we don't much like for money, but why do them for any other reason?

But if it's solely about the music, as in the aural part of the experience, then set the bar as high as you like. It's your prerogative if you're nobody's employee.

Just my 2 cents

[Bilbo]

[quote name='fatback' post='921808' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM']I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon [/quote]

By all means play it, study it, learn some tunes, practice them, get some lessons and then, when you have got some of the basics under your fingers, find a jazz jam session and go and play one of those tunes you have worked on with some other people. Then go home and practice some more and, next time, play two. What I am saying is, don't expect to say 'I think I'll have a go at jazz' on Monday and to book a gig for your new jazz quartet on Friday.

I'm going to get some t-shirts printed:

Jazz: don't cr*p on the music...

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='922428' date='Aug 12 2010, 10:30 AM']What I am saying is, don't expect to say 'I think I'll have a go at jazz' on Monday and to book a gig for your new jazz quartet on Friday.[/quote]

Totally.
I find the worst people for doing this are usually singers who think that going "Shoo Bop de Boo" automatically makes them
a jazz singer. It doesn't.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Doddy' post='921823' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:48 PM']....I know it was originally about jazz,but I think that it's relevant in all kinds of music....[/quote]
So we've all got to check with Bilbo to see if we're good enough to gig? Yeah right!

[Bilbo]

It so doesn't and everyone knows it....but, being 'English' we are too polite to say so. :snob:

Its ultimately destructive to allow people to proceed without guidance. I think there is a compelling argument to say we should be supportive and encouraging without being collusive. There is a scene in Wynton Marsalis' book 'Sweet Swing Blues on the Road: A Year with Wynton Marsalis and His Septet' where they have to send a young Eric Reed back to the woodshed for not quite cutting it. It is a particularly moving part of the story and there is a photo of Marsalis hugging the pianist after giving him the news. Now Eric was a good player then and is a GREAT player now but Marsalis needed to make the music the best it could be and needed a better player. By doing it in a respectful way, Reed maintains his dignity, goes away and gets the skills he needs to make himself a better player and Marsalis addresses the weakness. In the UK, we just 'don't call him' and never say why or jsut tolerate it because the money's good. Its a bit gutless, isn't it?. Or we slag him off behind his back? That's two faced? So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'.

I should note that I can take it as well as give it out and on the occasions when beter players have told me to work on something, I have taken it on the chin and done so (Iain Ballamy told me to work on my reading, Paul Tungay (60s London session ace and Tom Jones lead trumpeter for years) told me where my phrasing was slipping (helped me nail it) and Lee Goodall (Cardiff based multi instrumentalist who played baritone with Van Morrison and other horns with John Taylor, Paula Gardiner, Dylan Fowler and a host of others) who helped me deal with the concept of playing ahead of or behind the beat. If anyone else has anything to say about my playing, I would rather hear it than not as I can't rely entirely on my own critical sense to see the shortcomings.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='922720' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:44 PM']So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'.[/quote]

Love you to Bilbo, and I will try and do better.

John

[Doddy]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='922720' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:44 PM']So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'.[/quote]

Unfortunately,people like to have their ego's massaged and don't like to be told if there is a deficiency in their playing. I've noticed this when
I'm teaching....I've had people come for a lesson who have been told by their mates that they are ace,but are in fact lacking in many areas,
who take great offence when you point out that they have limitations and suggest ways for them to improve.They come with the sole intention
of being told that they are great and that I can't show them anything.
I've lost gigs because people didn't like my playing,and early on I was told my reading wasn't good enough.You'd better believe that in situations
like this,I went away and practised hard so that it won't happen again. That's why I still take occasional lessons.

[fatback]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='922758' date='Aug 12 2010, 02:08 PM']Love you to Bilbo, and I will try and do better.

John[/quote]

LOL

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' post='922695' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:25 PM']So we've all got to check with Bilbo to see if we're good enough to gig? Yeah right![/quote]

Obviously not, but it may be an idea to check with someone whose opinion you respect (and who you know will be honest with you - so your Nan might not be the best person ). Or to develop a critical sense that allows you to hear the difference between not good enough and good enough. That's actually really hard when you are starting out. If four of you start out together by starting a band before you can play, it may be even harder (although not impossible, as history tells us).

The tried and tested method Doddy discussed is nothing more than the natural quality control you get when you choose people for a football team, a sports event, a school play, a church choir, a pub quiz team etc. Main difference is a 24 piece choir can hide an iffy voice and football team can probably carry a dodgy player. Most bands have one of everything so a weak link tends to scream at you. When there are 2 or 3 weak links, forget it.

The important think to note is the sense that would allow you to quality control yourself or your band is exactly the same sense that will allow you to develop as a player. If you are deluded into thinking you are better than you are, you will have no motivation to work on the aspects of your playing that let you/the band down. Be your band's own worst critic.

One of the big problems for younger jazz musicians (under 60) is that, when many of the older guys started to play, the standard was very low and anyone with a heartbeat could get a gig (and they did). These guys are still out there; some of them are ok but some are excruciating. They still work, putting young people off jazz, left, right and centre Audiences are a LOT more discerning today than they were then and I sometimes wonder if this is why live music is becoming less popular. People want more from thei music than to watch fantasist 'having a go'.

How popular am I becoming?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Doddy' post='922767' date='Aug 12 2010, 02:11 PM']Unfortunately, people like to have their ego's massaged and don't like to be told if there is a deficiency in their playing.[/quote]

And there's the nub of it. Noone likes to be told they are not the genius they thought they were. I actually think that a lot of 'students' of the music need lessons in attitudinal change as much as they do in scales and chords. There's no 'i' in jazz (although there [i]are[/i] three in improvisation')

But that's another thread

[Paul_C]

I feel that there is room for all musicians to find their level, whether that is defined by their enthusiasm, their application or their audience.

As I mentioned earlier, there are all sorts to be found on the acoustic open mic. circuit, and in that situation I'm all for everyone having their chance, because it's a good place to get into performing, and to be able to listen to other players performances which my be beneficial.

If a band is expecting to get paid then you would hope they have some degree of skill, again depending on the type of music and the expectations of their audience. You also expect them to have put in some work in rehearsal where necessary to get things up to speed rather than learn as they go.

If a band is getting towards semi or fully professional then you would expect a (slightly?) higher standard to go with prices charged and again, audience expectation - jazz (as this was the beginning of this thread) these days is (unless I'm mistaken) much more listened to than danced to, and I would imagine therefore the expectation is much higher in those situations - if the band are just background music for a function then they can probably "get away" with less if they don't feel the need within themselves or don't even recognise there's anything lacking in their performance.

I play for the joy of what I'm contributing to the whole and am far more critical of my own performance than anyone else, mostly because I'm the only one who is paying that much attention to it Regardless of band member's or audience's comments I continue to hone my technique and question my note choices because I enjoy doing so, even though I could choose to cruise at the point I am and it would be "good enough".

As is proved time and time again on this and every other forum, there are differences of opinion on every subject under the sun and this thread was never going to be an exception, but I would tend to agree with Bilbo that playing in a band that causes you pain is something you either discuss with the other band members and do something about or leave, and with a genre of music as divisive as jazz, bad musicians are probably not going to help with it reaching a wider audience

[oldslapper]

Indeed you are Bilbo. This is a great topic.

I wonder if it is a Jazz thing?
I play in 3 different "outfits" and the attitude of the band members differs greatly.

8 piece function band.....Me, singer and the drummer learn our parts, rehearse them. The rest are lazy and the 3 of us get frustrated with the rest, but we gig regularly because we "entertain" and get booked by guests at whatever wedding/party we play at. It's a mystery to me why, coz I think we're sloppy and sh*@. But I am a tart and take the money and run.

3 piece originals post punk/pop/rock band. We have to be tight as there's no hiding place, but that's generally because the drummer and I drive the singer/writer to work on song arrangements. I love this band as I get to write/arrange/record/perform my own material.

4 piece Jazz jazz group. These guys are in there 60's and really care about every nuance of every chord/phrase and have played with some great jazz artists.
I "brick it" more often when we gig, as I'm out of my comfort zone. But I've learned more from the this lot and the other 2 bands put together.
They have also been very gracious to me and helped me improve and have not thrown me out when I've got it wrong as they know this 49 year old "kid" still believes he is learning his trade.

There is a big difference between rehearsing material until it is part of you, and gigging it until it's part of you. When you face that audience for the first time, some fall apart, despite sounding great in the practice room.

At what point do you say I am ready I wonder? Who judges? Where's the yard stick? "Where's the b@@*+y off button on your computer, please press it" you are no doubt asking...I shall exit stage left .....thanks Mr B for a thought provoking thread.

John

[Bilbo]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='922836' date='Aug 12 2010, 03:07 PM']At what point do you say I am ready I wonder? Who judges? Where's the yard stick?[/quote]

That's my point. IMO, it has to rest with your fellow musicians. In the case of your jazz band, your friends are clearly happy enough to work with you: it may be you have good time and a good sound and they feel able to wait for the rest to come. If your time was all over the place, you would probably have known about it already.

But you have to proceed with some caution because, sometimes, the 'old school' can be delusional and project all sorts of kudos on to your playing that isn't deserved. I used to play with an old guy a long time ago who thought I was the dogs danglies. Not because I was but because he [i]thought[/i] I was. He was a lovely guy and very enthusiastic (he apparently turned down a guitar gig with The Shadows before they became famous and has been kicking himself ever since) but his standards were very low. If you are surrounded by people like him, it can distort your own perspective on your playing (small town hero kind of thing). But, if they are credible players, they can take you forward absolutely.

As for yardstick, in my case there was a bl**dy great elephant in the room. I didn't need a ruler .

[Paul_C]

. . the other thing that occurs to me comes from Bilbo's mention of a football team being able to carry a player who's not quite up to scratch - if they are to succeed as a team they will all have to alter their game slightly to allow for this, so the team performance will not be at its most efficient.

If it's a pub team that are not of a great standard and no-one expects them to be, then no-one really cares, and the crowd, who paid nothing to watch the performance, will not feel that their enjoyment of the game been spoiled - they might even enjoy the antics of the weakest link.

If it's a team of pros who are entertaining a large audience who paid a substantial amount to get in (and for their replica kits etc.) then the standard has to be higher and they can't afford to carry anyone. The team works at its best when each player does his individual best and no-one has to worry about what the other players are doing and can concentrate on his own part.

If this works perfectly, each player can relax and everything will flow ever smoother giving the audience the maximum enjoyment for their money, and the players the thrill of being part of a great performance.

So there's room for everyone, and it's up to every individual to decide which level you prefer to play at, and as an audience, which you would prefer to see.

[Bilbo]

A good point, Paul. I guess the problem is that, if the whole team has to adjust slightly to make it work, that's ok. If the whole team cannot adjust enough to make it work, the alternative is obvious. Sack the player or disband the team. The level you play at is going to have a lot of bearing on the level of inadequacies you will tolerate. If I sat in with Herbie Hancock, I suspect I would get one tune in before I would get glared off stage. But, in an ordinary jazz gig, in a provincial town, I feel it is still morally defensible to expect a certain level of proficiency in the team/band members. If its not there, I reserve the right to do the glaring

[Doddy]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='922836' date='Aug 12 2010, 03:07 PM']I wonder if it is a Jazz thing?
I play in 3 different "outfits" and the attitude of the band members differs greatly.[/quote]

It's not just a jazz thing.There are players and bands in every genre that have delusions of adequacy. The big
difference though,is that in rock music you can become very successful by being very mediocre.

[fatback]

[quote name='Doddy' post='922967' date='Aug 12 2010, 05:41 PM']It's not just a jazz thing.There are players and bands in every genre that have delusions of adequacy. The big
difference though,is that in rock music you can become very successful by being very mediocre.[/quote]

A big difference is that outside jazz it's not all about the music. Approve of it or not, other things matter and can matter more than an individual player's ability.

Thankfully

[bassace]

Hmm. Videos can be so cruel.

Brave, thought provoking thread though, Bilbo.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Doddy' post='922967' date='Aug 12 2010, 05:41 PM']It's not just a jazz thing.There are players and bands in every genre that have delusions of adequacy. The big
difference though,is that in rock music you can become very successful by being very mediocre.[/quote]


Good point.

I like the "delusions of adequacy", brilliant.

John

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='922868' date='Aug 12 2010, 03:42 PM']That's my point. IMO, it has to rest with your fellow musicians. In the case of your jazz band, your friends are clearly happy enough to work with you: it may be you have good time and a good sound and they feel able to wait for the rest to come. If your time was all over the place, you would probably have known about it already.

But you have to proceed with some caution because, sometimes, the 'old school' can be delusional and project all sorts of kudos on to your playing that isn't deserved. I used to play with an old guy a long time ago who thought I was the dogs danglies. Not because I was but because he [i]thought[/i] I was. He was a lovely guy and very enthusiastic (he apparently turned down a guitar gig with The Shadows before they became famous and has been kicking himself ever since) but his standards were very low. If you are surrounded by people like him, it can distort your own perspective on your playing (small town hero kind of thing). But, if they are credible players, they can take you forward absolutely.

As for yardstick, in my case there was a bl**dy great elephant in the room. I didn't need a ruler .[/quote]

The parts I have to play are pretty simple, 2 to the bar really, the occasional tri-tone substitution to make things interesting, so probably not as demanding as the stuff you play Bilbo.
But as you said, I passed the audition because of my feel and timing apparently. And I'm slightly exaggerating my "noobness".

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='921596' date='Aug 11 2010, 01:49 PM']Charleston fusion. The drummer is too syncopated and the pianist is playing late 20c style licks. The drumkit is a post 50s setup.

OP's post is motivated by art. Performing in a professional context is not all art, it is work and public entertainment - perhaps public amusement, as in the charleston fusion above.[/quote]
That was my point, I was pointing out that the world of the professional is often revolved around entertainment and one has to do a job. Luckily for me I am pre-disposed to giving people a good time and feel no shame in that, I was asking Rob if he could see that before idealising the world of the Pro which from my conversations with him I know holds a certain attraction for him.
As for the content, it's certain that later influences will be in the players because they have existed in later times... I completely disagree about the drummer being 'too syncopated', I have been involved in music of that era for over 10 years so I'm not making it up.