Bilbo's campaign for the elimination of bad jazz...

[Bilbo]

Some of you may remember that I kicked a lurative gig into touch last year because the QC was so poor and getting poorer and I couldn't face the embarrassment of standing in front of an audience playing music I knew to be dreadful (especially when it starts appearing on Youtube ). Even at £150 a gig and 8 or 10 gigs a month in the summer, I couldn't do it anymore. I would finish the gigs and be driving home (usually clutching the moolah) feeling like s*** because this wasn't what I signed up for when I took up the bass in 1980.

Anyway, as a result of that decision, I have subsequently realised that, particularly in jazz, there are a LOT of very bad musicians out there; pianists, guitarists, drummers, horn players etc who are taking up gigs that should be available to creditable players and that I, by agreeing to play with them, am giving them undue credibility and feeding their delusions. More to the point, whenever a 'new' audience member was there looking to hear jazz for the first time, their experiences were wholly negative and, to my mind, this was doing harm to me, the music and the better players I come across.

So, since the new season started, I decided not to take gigs that I knew were going to be crap jazz, to turn down gigs where one or more the players lacked basic competences (time etc) and to refuse to associate myself with any of this third rate drivel.

Now, I now what you are thinking; arrogant t*sser. I would specify that some of these people are dreadful. Its not that they are not 'brilliant'/of top professional standard, it is that they lack the skills to play the music they are attempting. They lack basic technique, they have poor time, nothing swings, poor gear/bad sounds, no idiomatic knowledge, they are lazy and don't concentrate when playing etc etc. In short, if I walk away from a gig thinking 'that was total sh*te', why go back for more just for the money (I don't 'need' it. I like it, but I don't need it )? I have a drummer friend who has taken a similar route with some of the same people as I. Some of the gigs I do, I feel that I am floating on a cloud, everything works, it grooves, its musical etc etc. Other gigs suck big time. So why do them? I have done gigs with developing players to encourage but, when they don't learn and don't develop past 'good enough to get paid/fool some people', I withdraw. If they start getting 'attitude', they get honesty - both barrels .

What am I saying? I don't know. Don't play bad music, I guess. I am known here as a staunch advocate of jazz. I love it. But bad jazz is just that; bad jazz, And I won't be party to it any more.

I am playing one gig in August (I had 7 in 2009, 12 in 2008) but I feel emotionally better for it. Less is more. Quality over quantity. I am hoping to fill the gaps with db gigs as time goes on but, even if I don't, I will stand by this decision and use the time for study and composing. Bad gigs are no better than working in Macdonald's........

[fatback]

Time to start your own band?

[Bilbo]

That gig on 29th is my own band but it is not originals so its only a shallow victory! Great players, though, so I am looking forward to it.

The band is called 'Whither Then'?

[Doddy]

I know what you mean,but I'd still prefer to do a bad gig than work in McDonalds. I'm lucky at the moment because I have managed to cut out the 'bad' gigs,however if I have a quiet week and they offer the right money I'd still take it.I think my situation is different though,because I earn a loving from playing.
As far as bad jazz goes,while there are players who are not particularly good at it yet think they are,there are way more in the rock/pop world,often with larger 'wannabe rock star' egos aswell.

[Golchen]

Personally I think that's a great idea. Chalk one up to integrity.

[Golchen]

[quote name='Doddy' post='919492' date='Aug 9 2010, 12:26 PM'].... I think my situation is different though,because I earn a loving from playing.[/quote]

You're a jazz prostitute????

[oldslapper]

I think it's a shame Bilbo.
Bad musicians only improve by playing with better musicians.....(it's only an opinion folks so no shouting please)....so you may be denying someone the opportunity to improve by playing alongside someone as good as you.

[YouMa]

Skibbedy bah! Hey man i hope you are not including nude jazz in this put down.

Edited August 9, 2010 by YouMa

[Doddy]

[quote name='Golchen' post='919505' date='Aug 9 2010, 12:32 PM']You're a jazz prostitute????[/quote]

Haha.

Seriously though,I am a musical whore.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Doddy

[chris_b]

....bad jazz? How can you tell??

[Bilbo]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='919530' date='Aug 9 2010, 12:53 PM']I think it's a shame Bilbo.
Bad musicians only improve by playing with better musicians.....(it's only an opinion folks so no shouting please)....so you may be denying someone the opportunity to improve by playing alongside someone as good as you.[/quote]

Not adverse to that, o/s, but the $64,000 question is, when is someone just not good enough to be learning in public? Personally, I think the answer is sometimes as plain as the nose on your face.

I have contact with a lot of US Jazz journalists and one of the big issues for players in the major US cities is that students at the local music colleges (inc Berklee and BIT) are taking all of the gigs from the pros by agreeing to being paid a pittance and bringing along a string of other students to watch (and spend money). So, the irony is, the developing players take the gigs that, when they graduate, will be unavailable to them.

I think there is a difference between taking a developing player (I would consider myself to be little more than that) and giving them air time and taking a beginner and letting them 'have a go'. Traditionally, that was what jam sessions and sitting in was for. THere are some people turning up a jam sessions that are nowhere near ready to play in public. Now these guys are getting gigs because they can fool some of the people all of the time. I was talking to a (very competent) sax player who did a recent gig with the band I left last year and he told me that, on the last occasion, he saw members of the audience actually [i]laughing[/i] at the band. At the end, the bandleader said 'that went well'. Delusional. These people get gigs because they have the gift of the gab, can set up a website and can fool some people. They are a disgrace and should be exposed as charlatans. There I said it! The cognoscenti in the audience know and the rest aren't listening. The better musicians deserve better and so do the audiences.

My point is simply this: if they can get away with it, then who am I to criticise? Its just that I won't be party to it any more.

[molan]

Nice thread Bilbo - really got me thinking

I am, at best, an enthusiastic amateur when it comes to playing bass but I've been generally fortunate enough to play with musicians who are more talanted than I will ever be.

I remember in an early band thinking just how much better everyone else was & discussed this with the MD (who was about half my age!). I told him that I was contemplating leaving the band becuase I was, by some distance, the least able musician.

He was really cool about it and said that he'd noticed I was improving every week and that, although I lacked the technical skills, he preferred playing with me than with his other bassist. His reasoning was that I was better prepared, turned up on time, helped to organise band stuff and, most importantly, played in time & didn't 'widdle', lol.

Turned out the other guy could play some very clever stuff but his attention wandered and his timing would drift & he would frequently over-play and get in everyone's 'space' (this was a 13 piece soul band so finding your sonic space was quite important!).

He taught me an important lesson about attitude and ability; being able to play alongside him improved my playing and understanding of live music immensely. He also passed on some other wisdom - never play in a band that you wouldn't want to be in the audience watching them.

I've pretty much kept to this maxim ever since and it's stood me in good stead and really helped me to be proud of the bands I've been in and the music I've played. I've walked away from four bands that fell below this minimum requirement and not regretted any of them. It's meant I've played less gigs than I'd like but I'd feel a bit of a fraud standing up there going through the motions & not enjoying myself.

Of course I am in the advantageous position of only ever playing for enjoyment and not money so maybe I'm not really qualified to be part of this discussion! I totally understand how different someone's mindset would be if they were genuinely earning a living (or loving) from music. . .

[Paul_C]

[quote name='molan' post='919617' date='Aug 9 2010, 01:48 PM']Nice thread Bilbo - really got me thinking

*snip*

Of course I am in the advantageous position of only ever playing for enjoyment and not money so maybe I'm not really qualified to be part of this discussion! I totally understand how different someone's mindset would be if they were genuinely earning a living (or loving) from music. . .[/quote]

I get paid now and again, but play for the sheer enjoyment of playing music - I'm not sure I'd bother if it wasn't fun, so playing as part of whole that's worth hearing is essential for me.

That doesn't mean that we're all technically brilliant, but the band as a whole are always making the effort to be musical, and I spend a fair bit of my spare time working on my playing to make sure that I'm making a reasonable contribution to it, and not just settling for a "that'll do" attitude (even though it probably would)

[oldslapper]

You're right to maintain integrity Bilbo, it's important.

The "jam" night scene is pretty healthy round here, so the good, the bad and the ugly get to play together quite a lot.........i fall into the last 2 categories by the way.

Just hope you can still get alongside some "potential" and give some guidance, as you seem like someone who would be a good role model.

Unlike the musical tart that is I...!

[derrenleepoole]

Interesting thread Bilbo, and I'm sure I've been guilty of some of the issues you've raised. Hell, we've probably all have done it in our time, it's just part of the course of learning as a musician. Some will get there and become simply astonishing musicians, others will not - it is what it is.

But this thread harks back to the discussion we had on another thread about compositions that are 'bad' jazz (for want of a better term) - so tunes like Moondance etc. While having to endure music like this, or indeed musicians who don't have the skill required to deliver a good performance, it reminds us that mediocrity in all its forms is vitally important, and shouldn't be stamped out. Why? Well, simply put, without mediocrity, how do we judge truly great art? You can't, there is no bench mark. So while poor, or under developed musicianship is killing live music, it does mean that when the truly great stuff comes along, it's immediately obvious that it is and more enjoyable for it.

There is also the other side to this coin as well. I often see Gary Boyle playing live in one of my locals. Gary is a legend jazz guitarist, but quite often he ends up playing with equally competent musicians other times not, but who play the same old stuff in the same old way in the same old fashion. So a standard tune will be picked, let's say Things Ain't What They Used To Be - I can guarantee what will happen next - head, guitar solo, wind/key solo, bass solo, drum solo, head, end. While each musician may be fully capable the end result is often mediocre and predictable. Why, because many skilled musicians are stuck in their ways and are not prepared to try new things unlike say younger musicians. And given the choice, while many inexperienced musicians may not have the skill to deliver good jazz, they may have the energy and enthusiasm to deliver a solid and exciting performance. Being a skilled musician doesn't mean being a good musician and vice versa.

Good food for thought though.

[Doddy]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='919642' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:09 PM']But this thread harks back to the discussion we had on another thread about compositions that are 'bad' jazz (for want of a better term) - so tunes like Moondance etc. While having to endure music like this, or indeed musicians who don't have the skill required to deliver a good performance, it reminds us that mediocrity in all its forms is vitally important, and shouldn't be stamped out. Why? Well, simply put, without mediocrity, how do we judge truly great art? You can't, there is no bench mark. So while poor, or under developed musicianship is killing live music, it does mean that when the truly great stuff comes along, it's immediately obvious that it is and more enjoyable for it.[/quote]

I disagree slightly here. I don't think that alot of people do understand the difference between 'truly great art' and mediocrity. I think that,unfortunately,mediocrity has become the norm and that anything that is only slightly above average(or not) is being hailed as
'genius'. In this time of instant fame,people don't want to work at their craft anymore,and will happily settle for mediocrity,both in
themselves and in others.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='919448' date='Aug 9 2010, 11:53 AM']I would specify that some of these people are dreadful. Its not that they are not 'brilliant'/of top professional standard, it is that they lack the skills to play the music they are attempting. They lack basic technique, they have poor time, nothing swings, poor gear/bad sounds, no idiomatic knowledge, they are lazy and don't concentrate when playing etc etc. In short, if I walk away from a gig thinking 'that was total sh*te'[/quote]
It was nice of you to come and see us Bilbo - introduce yourself next time.

I think you are totally right to do this if it feels right for you. There are certain stage, TV and movie actors who are very selective about the rolls they take on, and it usually does them immense good from the credibility point of view. Then there are others who will be seen in anything. No matter how bad. It eventually damages them.

[Bilbo]

I am just reading Tim Blanning's 'The Triumph of Music' and what we are experiencing in the modern music industry is just history repeating itself. There were several mediocre performers who were fairly entreprenuerial in previous centuries and made considerable fortunes giving the uninformed 'what they want' at the expense of the artists who, hindsight has taught us, had something to say (the Cowell's of their day). The mediocre is, and always has been, throughout the history of music, where the money is. 'A tune you can hum after hearing it once' would seem to be the order of the day. The familiar. The tragedy is, for me, that rock and jazz are doing what classical music has done; turning into a repertory art form based on a very narrow catalogue of music. Tribute and covers bands are the 21st Century equivalent of the London Mozart Players, just regurgitating the tried and tested. Some people make their money like that. Good luck to them. I still thnk its a shame....

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Doddy' post='919657' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:20 PM']I disagree slightly here. I don't think that alot of people do understand the difference between 'truly great art' and mediocrity. I think that,unfortunately,mediocrity has become the norm and that anything that is only slightly above average(or not) is being hailed as
'genius'. In this time of instant fame,people don't want to work at their craft anymore,and will happily settle for mediocrity,both in
themselves and in others.[/quote]

That is true, but thankfully the majority of people who follow the careers (I use the term lightly) of those seeking instant fame are perhaps not as in abundance as the media would have us believe. There is a lot of them though admittedly, but perhaps not as much as we think there are. But my argument still holds up I feel. Truly great art is measurable against the mediocre crap being spilled out of the media nowadays.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='919671' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:33 PM']The familiar. The tragedy is, for me, that rock and jazz are doing what classical music has done; turning into a repertory art form based on a very narrow catalogue of music.[/quote]

Just out of interest Bilbo, what jazz are you currently spinning?

[Marvin]

A lot of good posts on here. I suppose, picking up of what Derren posted, the point is distinguishing between those who want to take risks but learn from them and those who think they have talent when in fact they aren't. The danger is excluding those with potential.
To some extent Doddy has a very valid point. Take for example Susan Boyle (or not ), the general public believe she's an absolute gem of a singer. Talk to any pro singer and they'll say she has a good voice but nothing out of the ordinary.
And Bilbo, your point about covers bands etc. I was only discussing this with a singer this morning. We have a free gig in our town in a couple of weeks. There are only 3 bands booked so far and all 3 do covers. She even admitted that doing covers herself wasn't a good thing and will chuck in some of her original material. As she said if all the bands are covers bands, you may as well just book one and they could do the whole evening.
But covers and tributes are safe for venues, they seem less willing to take risks on original bands. And audiences don't seem to want to take the risk. I fear we live in a very backward looking world, the past was always better so let's just listen to that.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='919682' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:50 PM']Just out of interest Bilbo, what jazz are you currently spinning?[/quote]

This month's downloads: Enrico Pieranunzzi/Marc Johnson/Joey Baron Trio, Robert Hurst's Unrehurst, Dave Holland's new album w. Pepe Habichuela and John Patitucci's Rememberance.

I know what you are getting at but I am trying to avoid 50s and 60s jazz at moment for the same reasons; I want to know what is happening now not historically. Still get the old stuff out periodically but only really listen to music on my ipod so its new stuff mainly.

[derrenleepoole]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='919702' date='Aug 9 2010, 03:26 PM']Dave Holland's new album w. Pepe Habichuela[/quote]

This album is stunning, but I can't help but feel that Dave is mixed a little low for my tastes - I want the bass to rumble more

I'd recommended the following for you to try out: The new Phronesis album 'Alive' is simply astounding - beautifully recorded and the craftsmanship is incredible. Mike Walker's album 'Madhouse And The Whole Thing There' is an excellent listen too, the first track in particular, he's also a top bloke. Kyle Eastwood's 'Metropolitain' ain't too shabby either, and if you're feeling exotic try John Zorn's O'o, which is simply wonderful - very easy listening for Zorn. Some of the other groups I'm really digging at the moment are Trio ELF with the album '746' and Gareth Williams Power Trio with 'Shock!'

You probably know these already, but if you don't, go check them out Peace.

[Bilbo]

Don't know any of them so will have a look around (love Mike Walker though not so sure about Zorn)

[chris_b]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='919641' date='Aug 9 2010, 02:08 PM']....You're right to maintain integrity Bilbo, it's important....[/quote]
I don't think Bilbo is talking about integrity at all!

Integrity starts and stops with you. Did you do the best job you could? Then you played with integrity. So, you played with a bunch of out of time and tune no hopers? That doesn’t detract from your integrity.

Now, musical snobbery and elitism is another subject altogether!