Setup Question

[Musicman20]

Im going to give two of my basses a good setup. Ive got the information but I need to check if this is something that is 'setup' related.

Firstly - MIA P Rosewood - I think the strings are a little 'too' low and there is some buzz. Im guessing I need to adjust the truss rod by following the guides? Its nice to play, but the action is a little low.

Secondly - MIA J Maple - The strings are the same as the above, but it feels very 'tense' to play. Im not really used to .110 Es, but I must admit the Jazz strings seem stiffer.

Is this purely a neck relief issue, action issue, or both?

Using the Lakland technique on setup, it seems the Jazz strings do sit off the board a fair bit whilst pressing the 1st fret and between 12-13th, (on the J). On the P, the strings are virtually touching the frets whilst doing this.

Ideas?

Thanks

[Paul_C]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='923409' date='Aug 13 2010, 12:46 AM']Im going to give two of my basses a good setup. Ive got the information but I need to check if this is something that is 'setup' related.

Firstly - MIA P Rosewood - I think the strings are a little 'too' low and there is some buzz. Im guessing I need to adjust the truss rod by following the guides? Its nice to play, but the action is a little low.

Secondly - MIA J Maple - The strings are the same as the above, but it feels very 'tense' to play. Im not really used to .110 Es, but I must admit the Jazz strings seem stiffer.

Is this purely a neck relief issue, action issue, or both?

Using the Lakland technique on setup, it seems the Jazz strings do sit off the board a fair bit whilst pressing the 1st fret and between 12-13th, (on the J). On the P, the strings are virtually touching the frets whilst doing this.

Ideas?

Thanks[/quote]

simple answers.

don't use the truss rod to raise or lower action, but do adjust first when setting up - there should be some space beneath the string at around the 7th fret when holding it down (I use 1st and 14th frets, but as long as you're consistent it doesn't matter) this space is to some degree down to personal preference/technique/etc.

once the relief is set you can raise or lower the saddles to get the action to where you want it - again this is going to be personal preference depending on how you play/size and type of string etc. usually the E is slightly higher than the G and the other two should follow an arc that matches the radius of the fingerboard.

once that's done you can do the intonation and check the action again if you've done some big adjustments

once it's done, if the action changes due to the neck moving (big changes in weather conditions and what you might do to compensate (putting the central heating on) will usually be the reasons for that) then all you should need to do at that point is tweak the truss rod to return to your preferred relief.

because in most instances necks are made of wood, they don't all behave the same way, so there will be differences in how they settle when under tension - some move a lot, some it's very difficult to move at all, even with heavy strings on, so you can't be sure to get every neck the same, but it should be reasonably easy to get a degree of consistency.

also different fret heights will give a different feel, even though all other measurements are identical, so again it may not be possible to get two different instruments to match exactly.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Paul_C

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='923409' date='Aug 13 2010, 12:46 AM']Using the Lakland technique on setup, it seems the Jazz strings do sit off the board a fair bit whilst pressing the 1st fret and between 12-13th, (on the J). On the P, the strings are virtually touching the frets whilst doing this.

Ideas?

Thanks[/quote]

The 'tension' in the jazz strings may well be due to the neck being excessively bowed, personally I like it close to straight under tension and then set the action for acceptable buzz - did this to my Jap 75RI and afterwards it plays so much easier, with similar saddle heights to before.I was lucky actually, initially I just couldn't get it doing what I wanted and the truss rod was really stiff, until I took the neck off for a few weeks while working on the body, when I put it back everything behaved perfectly and after adjustment it felt like a new, and better, instrument. It's been stable since too.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='923637' date='Aug 13 2010, 11:26 AM']The 'tension' in the jazz strings may well be due to the neck being excessively bowed, personally I like it close to straight under tension and then set the action for acceptable buzz - did this to my Jap 75RI and afterwards it plays so much easier, with similar saddle heights to before.I was lucky actually, initially I just couldn't get it doing what I wanted and the truss rod was really stiff, until I took the neck off for a few weeks while working on the body, when I put it back everything behaved perfectly and after adjustment it felt like a new, and better, instrument. It's been stable since too.[/quote]

Thanks.

Does this mean the neck needs to be straightened out? If Im looking towards the headstock, from the body end (as the truss rod access is as the neck-body join), do I turn one quarter RIGHT to get the gap between the strings and the board to be closer?

I will obviously detune the strings a little so they are slacker, then tune up after the tweak.

I have all the tools here....Im just being very wary that I get it right. Im thinking it needs a very slight tweak.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Paul_C' post='923608' date='Aug 13 2010, 10:53 AM']simple answers.

don't use the truss rod to raise or lower action, but do adjust first when setting up - there should be some space beneath the string at around the 7th fret when holding it down (I use 1st and 14th frets, but as long as you're consistent it doesn't matter) this space is to some degree down to personal preference/technique/etc.

once the relief is set you can raise or lower the saddles to get the action to where you want it - again this is going to be personal preference depending on how you play/size and type of string etc. usually the E is slightly higher than the G and the other two should follow an arc that matches the radius of the fingerboard.

once that's done you can do the intonation and check the action again if you've done some big adjustments

once it's done, if the action changes due to the neck moving (big changes in weather conditions and what you might do to compensate (putting the central heating on) will usually be the reasons for that) then all you should need to do at that point is tweak the truss rod to return to your preferred relief.

because in most instances necks are made of wood, they don't all behave the same way, so there will be differences in how they settle when under tension - some move a lot, some it's very difficult to move at all, even with heavy strings on, so you can't be sure to get every neck the same, but it should be reasonably easy to get a degree of consistency.

also different fret heights will give a different feel, even though all other measurements are identical, so again it may not be possible to get two different instruments to match exactly.[/quote]

Thanks.

There is a 'gap' as mentioned, but I personally think its a little too big. So im guessing, as stated above, a quarter turn to the right if im looking towards the headstock from the body?

[JTUK]

I have done this many a time for basse with really slim necks but now I hanker after stable necks straight out of a gig bag. They are still slim tho', but I am not sure I would post what I do for someone else to follow, personally.

I would set the action to buzz when playing slumped in a chair so when standing upright the buzz does not occur. Necks tweaks are qtr turns at the moist and then you need to let the neck settle..pref over night.

Regarding string tension, different brands can feel completely different, IME. I used to prefer DR hi beams as they felt less taunt to me than others. Now, I am less picky and am playing around with light sets from 40 gauge to 45..but as I say, differnet brands make them feel differnet so the gauge thing is hard to determine.

It sounds like the P-Bass needs a tad of relief, so I'd slacken the neck off

and it sounds like the Jazz needs starightening to take out the hi action

I prefer straighter necks and low action for a light touch so when the top fret and the 1st neck are fretted with both hands and the bass lying flat on its back.. the 12th fret is pretty much touching as well. When you stand the bass up, this is about as low as that bass will go.
Once I have that set-up, I will find tune the height with the bridge.

I also like to use tapered string over the saddles so I have got lots of adjustment both ways but my gigging basses necks are pretty stable as it happens. I am still wary of sunlight, temp changes etc etc and NEVER leave my bass resting on its neck. This is more a historical fear so all my basses hang when not used... or are cushioned underneath the neck when put away for a time. I never have the head-piece and the body taking the strain without the neck being supported.. but maybe that is just me and uber slim necks in the past.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='JTUK' post='923699' date='Aug 13 2010, 12:14 PM']I have done this many a time for basse with really slim necks but now I hanker after stable necks straight out of a gig bag. They are still slim tho', but I am not sure I would post what I do for someone else to follow, personally.

I would set the action to buzz when playing slumped in a chair so when standing upright the buzz does not occur. Necks tweaks are qtr turns at the moist and then you need to let the neck settle..pref over night.
...
I also like to use tapered string over the saddles so I have got lots of adjustment both ways but my gigging basses necks are pretty stable as it happens. I am still wary of sunlight, temp changes etc etc and NEVER leave my bass resting on its neck. This is more a historical fear so all my basses hang when not used... or are cushioned underneath the neck when put away for a time. I never have the head-piece and the body taking the strain without the neck being supported.. but maybe that is just me and uber slim necks in the past.[/quote]

Wow I've been FAR more cavalier! On my bullet truss jazzes, I turned several full turns to get them roughly in the right area, giving the neck a bit of a flex in between to help it settle in, and fine-tuned the following day - but then the 75RI was very out to start with (not really engaged at all in fact). I guess it also depends on the thread size on the truss rod in question, but I found a quarter turn did next to b****r all.
On a (5-piece) Ibanez neck I never once adjusted the truss over several years and varying temperatures/humidities, but I think they're a lot more stable than typical Fenders. Certainly didn't see the flex I do on the jazzes when strung versus slack. I'd have thought those graphite-rod necks were a bit better in this respect though.

Oh and yes, turn clockwise to tighten.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='923945' date='Aug 13 2010, 02:45 PM']Wow I've been FAR more cavalier! On my bullet truss jazzes, I turned several full turns to get them roughly in the right area, giving the neck a bit of a flex in between to help it settle in, and fine-tuned the following day - but then the 75RI was very out to start with (not really engaged at all in fact). I guess it also depends on the thread size on the truss rod in question, but I found a quarter turn did next to b****r all.
On a (5-piece) Ibanez neck I never once adjusted the truss over several years and varying temperatures/humidities, but I think they're a lot more stable than typical Fenders. Certainly didn't see the flex I do on the jazzes when strung versus slack. I'd have thought those graphite-rod necks were a bit better in this respect though.

Oh and yes, turn clockwise to tighten.[/quote]I have set up hundreds of guitars and basses and have NEVER had to do several full turns.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='924412' date='Aug 13 2010, 09:37 PM']I have set up hundreds of guitars and basses and have NEVER had to do several full turns.[/quote]

Like I said it was way out, basically not engaged at all! Plus I noticed that the bullet is not the same between the Jap and Mexi 70s jazzes, I think the former may use a finer (presumably metric) thread which would require more turns for a given degree of movement.