1980's 4 string StingRays

[iconic]

Just for interest, any big changes for 4 string Rays from 80's (Ernie Ball) on 90's and 00's....are earlier ones more desireable etc

If there are too many to desribe, lets say single humbucker 4 string 2/3 EQ?

many thanks guys

[stingrayPete1977]

I dont think there is much difference between all EB's,I dont like the new style nut? Other than that choose a colour!
It has been said that maybe the late 80's to early 90's one with the mutes and the nice birdseye necks have got to stretch out a little over time and I think they will be next after the pre EB and Anniversary Rays to see a bit of a seperate following.Its for this reason I think all second hand EBs are a bargain at the moment as there is little to no difference between them,Im not even going to mention 2 band/3 band as there are MANY old threads to read up on here and it always comes back to personal choose and us pre EB owners telling everyone how good they are!

[mcnach]

Something I didn't know was that the 2EQ original and the later 2EQ models are not the same. The later ones appear to have a lower treble frequency. Or so I'm told... I was exchanging a couple of emails with John East as I was trying to decide whether to get one of his preamps... and that's one of the things I learnt.
Just in case the matter wasn't confusing enough already!

[martthebass]

Pretty much with the above on this one. I've not found any difference between late 80's, 90's and 00's other than it was more commonplace to have nicely figured maple necks on the 80's and 90's. Soundwise and playability they're pretty much the same IMHO.

Oh and I guess I'm with Pete on the new nut (on 2006 on basses) - I prefer it for the intonation but you have to think harder about fretting at the 1st as a bit more pressure is needed (tho I think string selection may have an influence here) than the standard nut.

Also as Pete said the anniversaries add something to the mix, especially the Ray4 20th and 30ths - again IMHO.

[iconic]

:wub:

I have been lent a 1980's Stingray 4 string H 2EQ in the most wonderful honey sunburst type colour, all original....played it for 10 mins before popping to the Barrel and bash my balls with an iron bar this thing could blow a house down....my 3EQ Active Yamaha 614 went all quiet with no EQ but this baby is still loud, loud and loud....I love it at the moment.

I like the string mute idea, but this has the E and A ones missing, I use a elastic band on my other basses .

....it's all original too, and light, I was under the impression they (Rays) were heavy.....I held a SR4 last week and that thing could double for an anchor for a battleship...why the difference?

The neck feels different to a Sub I held too?

[stingrayPete1977]

There are a lot of people on here that love subs and reckon they are as good as the real thing but to me they feel totally different, The black neck looks like something from a kids one from poundland,The chequer scratch plate is badly made and fitted and they were way overpriced when new,A second hand Ray would always have been a better buy for £800 and there are better secondhand Fenders for the same price as the current value on the secondhand subs.I dont normally comment on Subs as I dont want to upset anyone or sound like im being a dick but there we go I have said it and will defend it.I have had enough Sub owners telling me I have wasted my money on EB's and pre EB's so its only fair anyway,Sorry Substers!

As for the 2 Band EQ check out musicman.org and look at the relevent section there is even a photo of an Ernie Ball replacement 2 band EQ that is identicle to my pre EB one (the last pre EB ones with electrolytic caps 81>)Its only the recent 1990 onwards 2 bands that have now gone to the modern green pcb style which may have a few different components on it but there seems no point really so I cant see as they would of changed,Anyone with any version of a 2 band will tell you there would be no need for any more treble on tap!

Send John East the musicman.org linky!

Edited August 14, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

[url="http://www.musicmanbass.org/mycustompage0019.htm"]http://www.musicmanbass.org/mycustompage0019.htm[/url]

[obi 2 kenobi]

Hi, got a 87 ray 3eq, had since new.
Played a few times againt recent examples.
Not a lot of difference.
other than change in bridge, comp nut and oil finished necks, the principal difference is fingerboard radius.
My 87 and 78 are the same.
Newer stingrays have flatter fingerboards, less curved. Pickups are also flat. No raised poles. Meaning any G volume problems are probably easier to fix.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='924663' date='Aug 14 2010, 09:28 AM']Send John East the musicman.org linky! [/quote]

It seems he's done a fair bit of measuring and comparing. When I mentioned something about the centre frequencies he replied with the actual graphs he obtains with an oscilloscope. I trust people who actually measure things themselves

[obi 2 kenobi]

The 2eq boards are unchanged under EB.

I think John East had a 76 as reference. The early pre-ebs, approx 76 to 78 had differing circuits. Leo was still experimenting perhaps.

How different I don't know.

Never been able to do a test of my 78 against an older 2eq

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' post='924776' date='Aug 14 2010, 11:25 AM']It seems he's done a fair bit of measuring and comparing. When I mentioned something about the centre frequencies he replied with the actual graphs he obtains with an oscilloscope. I trust people who actually measure things themselves [/quote]
As for measuring well Im a time served electrician and did 3 years at college doing electronics! Components are just that,The circuit is fairly simple and you could make one up at home on a bread board in no time.The tolerances in different components from different suppliers are minute and would be as different between early ones and each other as a new one you just made.The different pre EB ones will be different to each other and are covered in epoxy anyway so its hard to tell exactly whats there but All the ones with the electrolytic caps 81>are the same and as I said there is a photo of the Ernie Ball replacement one on the musicman.org website that goes up to 1990 and after that the circuit is just put onto a crescent shaped pcb with no known differences,It will take about 3 mins if anyone wants to put a good clear pic up to compare the circuits.
Im not trying to be an arse about this but what more can you say? John east can do what he likes and tell you whatever but simple electronics are just that.
I will put some pics of my pre amp up but it sounds like you have already made your mind up,If you want a J East do it its your project but the circuits ARE the same.

[stingrayPete1977]

Simple version of above,
1976-1981 who knows? Leo played around a fair bit and they differ a small ammount and are covered in black epoxy.
1981-1990 The same circuit with a protection resistor in some.
1990-Present up for debate but easy enough to trace the components and values to see if they are the same.

That sums it up for me.

[stingrayPete1977]

This is my pre amp 1982 all original,
[attachment=56577:82_20Sti...ay_20002.jpg]

Here it is on the musicman.org site in another bass (1983)
[attachment=56578:1983_Preamp.jpg]

Here is a brand new in the package 2 band replacement pre amp for an EB bass
[attachment=56579:new_pre_amp.jpg]

There is about £2 worth of bits from maplin on there and you do not need an oscilloscope to test that these are the same.

Edited August 14, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[iconic]

cheers guys.

but why the difference in the weight between the two SR4 H 2EQ I have held?

[martthebass]

[quote name='iconic' post='925003' date='Aug 14 2010, 04:58 PM']cheers guys.

but why the difference in the weight between the two SR4 H 2EQ I have held?[/quote]
EB have used ash, poplar and occasionally alder for rays over the years. Transparent finishes are almost exclusively ash. I've had a few solid colours and these have always been heavier than trans - maybe they were denser poplar.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' post='924776' date='Aug 14 2010, 11:25 AM']It seems he's done a fair bit of measuring and comparing. When I mentioned something about the centre frequencies he replied with the actual graphs he obtains with an oscilloscope. I trust people who actually measure things themselves [/quote]

I just found out that [b]all[/b] 2 EQ Stingrays have the LM4250CN chip and the pot resistance values are the same from 1976 until the present day, So the only difference is in the capacitors and a few resistors. The chips are available for £1 from RS Components.I have not had a play about for a while and this has got my juices going so you might find a new pre amp on the market very soon! If I made 10 I think they could be sold for around £30 each which sounds like a bargain for a 2 band EQ made to the exact spec of the originals. And I have the perfect one to copy all the resistor and cap values from too.

Edited August 14, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[iconic]

The super smashing and so generous lender tells me this Ray has Dean Markley strings, very bright, feel like Roto's, sounds like a metal dustbin lid being hit with a sledgehammer hhhhhmmmmmmmmmm nice..what a tone on Higher Ground, this thing slaps better than a fish out of water!

....downside...I know what is meant by a weak G string, great when popping but so quiet and dull if fingered, makes my Yammy BB414 G sound like it's being popped when fingered in comparrison...does make that sense?


I really don't want to give this bass back ...

[stingrayPete1977]

Have a play with the pup height and angle but dont be affraid to lower the E string end away rather than raise the G It should have plenty of umph to cope with that.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='925115' date='Aug 14 2010, 07:22 PM']I just found out that [b]all[/b] 2 EQ Stingrays have the LM4250CN chip and the pot resistance values are the same from 1976 until the present day, So the only difference is in the capacitors and a few resistors. The chips are available for £1 from RS Components.I have not had a play about for a while and this has got my juices going so you might find a new pre amp on the market very soon! If I made 10 I think they could be sold for around £30 each which sounds like a bargain for a 2 band EQ made to the exact spec of the originals. And I have the perfect one to copy all the resistor and cap values from too.[/quote]



I go away for a couple of days and I find all this. Nice, nice

I'll come back to this in a minute, but first I'll clarify something:
I do have a 2EQ Stingray (a 2002). What I wanted was a 3EQ, because as nice as the 2EQ is, I seem to miss the extra mids sometimes. But the 2EQ sounds different from a Seymour Duncan STC-3M3, their 3-band for Stingrays. So I was after something that operated like the Stingray 2EQ when the mids were set flat. That's all.
That's when the J East became interesting, as it claims it is based on the Stingray 2EQ. But with the addition of a mid control (sweepable freq), you also get an interesting bright switch and a passive/active switch). I wasn't trying to change a 2EQ for another 2EQ. It was during my queries ascertaining how close to the SR2EQ this 2EQ was that I got the comment about having slightly different response on the high treble (his 76 SR and a modern one he tested).

But I'm glad I made that comment and got you so fired up.
You see... I have a still passive OLP that I wanted to modify. Someone in Talkbass even made the boards for the 2EQ available for next to nothing. So I got one. I have the diagram and list of components. I just need to source them and set up an afternoon to tinker. A quick check made me think I could build it for around £30... actual costs depending on how many places I had toorder things from, as often the postage costs are close to the actual components, most of them being so cheap.
I still want to build it, even if I might have the Stingray's own 2EQ put away in a box somewhere.

I'm not an electronics engineer. I did 3 out of the 6 years in Madrid. The last 3 were the specialisation years, so I saw no electronics really, just chemistry, mechanics, materials, calculus, statistics, computing, technical drawing... then I dropped out and became a biologist. I love what I do. But sometimes I wish I had learnt electronics. As a substitute, I want people who know in my vicinity. Hi stingrayPete1977!

The thread in Talkbass where the preamp boards originated is pretty interesting. Several members already built these preamps and love them. Some own the real thing and say that in fact, they sound the same. The interesting part comes when a few people who know a bit of lectronics decide to start modifying components. Some change the chips (it seems you can even get some for free as "samples" if you enquire the relevant manufactures) some change other bits and pieces... and it all seems to change the tone in subtle but useful ways...

thread:
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614382&highlight=stingray+preamp"]Talkbass thread about Stingray preamp[/url]

I'll build the preamp just because, and also tinker a bit trying some of the changes reported on the thread above.
If you get interested enough that start playing around with it, I'd be very interested to hear what you find

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='martthebass' post='925010' date='Aug 14 2010, 05:09 PM']EB have used ash, poplar and occasionally alder for rays over the years. Transparent finishes are almost exclusively ash. I've had a few solid colours and these have always been heavier than trans - maybe they were denser poplar.[/quote]
A +1 to that. Alder and Poplar (and, for that matter Basswood (Bongo) and Sycamore (Original Burns Bison)) are not really very "pretty" to look at. They can be a bit dull and washed-out looking. Ash has a bolder, more attractive grain, and is typically used by many manufacturers as a solid body or veneer (cheaper instruments) under Trans, 2TS or 3TS finishes as well as for natural bodies.
My 1990 Poplar Ray 5 is Black.
My 2004 Ash MIA Jazz is Trans Sunset Orange.

As for fit and finish, I've yet to see a poor MM bass. I'm sure they might have made a few, but not many!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' post='925624' date='Aug 15 2010, 03:09 PM']

I go away for a couple of days and I find all this. Nice, nice [/quote]

You said "you only trusted people who actually measure stuff" I like photos and hard evidence,Im not being awkward mcnash just defending my corner that they are the same and as you can see and from what you are saying on the other forum you can build one easy as pie and just because I have no oscilloscope to hand its no more than an afternoon to do a small batch with a few bits swapped for fun.I beleive what your saying too that the copy ones that people have made sound the same,I cant see why they would not.

BTW I didnt have to strip the pre EB just for the pic thats one I lifted from the dealer I had it from and the others are on musicman.org who have been very good when I have emailed with any questions I have had

Back OT Im a bit lost as to exactly what you want now anyway?,My strat has one of those total bypass tone pots when its fully round it clicks off,Maybe there is a way of bringing the two circuits together like this so its a 2 band then 3 band when it comes off the stop?If you had the room for 2 pre amps could also be interesting and the OLP as much as you love them would not be as bottom clenching as an EBMM to modify the body to make room?

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='925707' date='Aug 15 2010, 05:17 PM']You said "you only trusted people who actually measure stuff" I like photos and hard evidence,Im not being awkward mcnash just defending my corner that they are the same and as you can see and from what you are saying on the other forum you can build one easy as pie and just because I have no oscilloscope to hand its no more than an afternoon to do a small batch with a few bits swapped for fun.I beleive what your saying too that the copy ones that people have made sound the same,I cant see why they would not.

BTW I didnt have to strip the pre EB just for the pic thats one I lifted from the dealer I had it from and the others are on musicman.org who have been very good when I have emailed with any questions I have had

Back OT Im a bit lost as to exactly what you want now anyway?,My strat has one of those total bypass tone pots when its fully round it clicks off,Maybe there is a way of bringing the two circuits together like this so its a 2 band then 3 band when it comes off the stop?If you had the room for 2 pre amps could also be interesting and the OLP as much as you love them would not be as bottom clenching as an EBMM to modify the body to make room?[/quote]


I didn't say I *only* trust measurements... I said that I tend to trust measurements more than looks.

I imagine that keeping the same circuit layout, but changing the values of a resistor there and a capacitor there, can result in something such as shifting the frequency centre or something along those lines. I'm not sure how easy it is to tell those values from a picture... resistor coloured bands? difficult. Their actually printed values? forget it. Similarly for the capacitors. For that reason I can't say these two identical-looking preamps really *are* identical and work the same way, until I measure *something*. Two genes may look identical... but a small difference means one of them turns the carrier into a patient because his hemoglobin doesn't work properly.

You're an engineer... I'm a scientist.
We get our knickers bunched up in different ways, and our definition of "identical" does vary

I don't know electronics. So I can't build a preamp from scratch. I can solder and follow instructions. So I was going to build a 2EQ SR-style because I had the instructions. I have a bass who wants a preamp. Actually two now... it turns out I got another OLP on eBay today, which I'll convert to fretless. Because I enjoy these sort of things almost as much as actually playing them (two gigs this coming week, and for one of them I don't yet know but 25% of the songs... )
But that was *unrelated* to my original comment which sparked off your quest to show me that all 2EQ Stingray preamps are essentially the same design.

Briefly:
1) I have a 2EQ Stingray that I love. Yet, I find I miss the mid control... I want to do something about that.
2) I can't build a good 3EQ preamp
3) I don't want a Seymour Duncan STC-3M3 for this bass. I have one, and I like it. A lot. But the bass and treble controls don't work as in the SR 2EQ.
the SR 2EQ is nice... but just lacks the mid control, for me.
4) For this bass, I want to retain the SR 2EQ, plus a mid control. Simples

My only available route is a commercial one.
J East is the only one who states it's based on a real SR 2EQ (his own '76 SR)
It replicates the original, then adds mid control (with user-selected mid frequency centre via another knob)
I contacted him to find just how close this preamp, with the mids set flat, would be to the SR 2EQ. That's all.
The response was, briefly: "very".
He mentioned his tests (measuring ), and that a newer SR he tested appeared to have a slightly lower treble centre. Don't know how much "slightly" is, and it could well be some of the expected variations you get (not sure again what tolerances the components used are rated at...). This is using the same bass, same pickup... two preamps connected to a commuter switch to A/B test the differences. Differences = "slightly". I can believe that. By design or intention? I didn't know. You have shown that the design is broadly the same (maybe even identical: if all components have always the same values, which I can't tell from a picture).

And... that's about it, really!

I hope that cleared a bit your confusion. It was very simple, I thought, but maybe I wasn't very good at expressing myself.

Now, quasi paraphrasing the great Frank Zappa... let's shut up and play our (bass) guitars

At the end of the day, playing in a bar for people getting slowly drunk... I doubt anybody would care what I play. Nobody cares about the bass player...

... until you stop playing, then they realised they were hooked to bass all along, they just didn't know it

[stingrayPete1977]

The tolerances on electronic components are tiny and Im talking nano and pico tiny certainley well beyond our range to be able to hear no matter what anyone tells you although the types, mainly in the caps would make a slight difference.Electrolytic caps are said to sound better to the ear and thats why most manufacturers have stayed with them although as they are found in everything they are also cheap so thats another possibility?There is also age and capacitors change with a more noticeable effect than values might even do so measuring and comparing new to old is actually not that relevent anyway.Trust me a magnifying glass and a piece of A4 paper bit of tinkering and you would not be able to tell which one was which after without looking.
Except the one I made would look like a great big snakes wedding and would not fit in the route hole! If you go to RS components and buy a big sheet of bread board and all the bits you would get the hang of it in no time and Im defo no engineer just a good old sparky me!

I did mention on the HS stingray for sale that you were after a J East did he give you a pm? It might not be the one your after but if it is there maybe a saving to be had for you?

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='925756' date='Aug 15 2010, 06:56 PM']The tolerances on electronic components are tiny and Im talking nano and pico tiny certainley well beyond our range to be able to hear no matter what anyone tells you although the types, mainly in the caps would make a slight difference.Electrolytic caps are said to sound better to the ear and thats why most manufacturers have stayed with them although as they are found in everything they are also cheap so thats another possibility?There is also age and capacitors change with a more noticeable effect than values might even do so measuring and comparing new to old is actually not that relevent anyway.Trust me a magnifying glass and a piece of A4 paper bit of tinkering and you would not be able to tell which one was which after without looking.
Except the one I made would look like a great big snakes wedding and would not fit in the route hole! If you go to RS components and buy a big sheet of bread board and all the bits you would get the hang of it in no time and Im defo no engineer just a good old sparky me!

I did mention on the HS stingray for sale that you were after a J East did he give you a pm? It might not be the one your after but if it is there maybe a saving to be had for you?[/quote]


I thought lots of resistors/caps easily had +/-10% or more.
Or maybe just the ones I used to buy!

No, I didn't get any PM... but the J East has already been ordered after talking to the man... next weekend I should be able to install it and perhaps use it for the Sunday gig. Thanks for mentioning it anyway!

[stingrayPete1977]

No problem, I did not want to be cheeky just putting 2 and 2 together! Let us know how it sounds when its in then