Clarky Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Bilbo' post='926440' date='Aug 16 2010, 01:47 PM']Planet Rock? So a profoundly academic ethnomusicological analysis of the merits of the piece based on sound empirical evidence, then As Shakespeare would have said: 'The dance of the moon doth suck'[/quote] At the risk of turning you into a purple, vein-busting Hulk-type creature, Bilbo, what is so bad about the bassline of Moondance - sounds like (an admittedly pop-inflected) take on a standard Jazz walking bass line to me???? Would have thought that anything that brought Jazz closer to mainstream consciousness would be appreciated by you, rather than vilified??? Genuinely curious here, not trying to rattle cages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Clarky' post='926546' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:16 PM']At the risk of turning you into a purple, vein-busting Hulk-type creature, Bilbo, what is so bad about the bassline of Moondance - sounds like (an admittedly pop-inflected) take on a standard Jazz walking bass line to me???? Would have thought that anything that brought Jazz closer to mainstream consciousness would be appreciated by you, rather than vilified??? Genuinely curious here, not trying to rattle cages[/quote] *Popcorn time* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 My work here is done, time to settle down and watch the fireworks display... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomTom Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Vinny' post='926540' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:12 PM']I tend to agree with most of the posts on the subject of "awful", I don't ever remember seeing a band and thinking 'Even I'm better than him' etc. Having said that... Snow Patrol, anyone....?[/quote] I think i could play every section, on every instrument, of every song they have released - and id class myself as awful. But, people lap that sh*t up. And i have to say, as crap as i think it is, id rather listen to it all day, than some of the jazz stuff that gets wailed about on here. I cant stand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Bloody hell, this thread has suddenly turned into Bilbo baiting hour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Clarky' post='926546' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:16 PM']Genuinely curious here, not trying to rattle cages[/quote] Yes, me too. I've tried listening to jazz, but I just don't get it - which is a real shame because everyone involved seems to really enjoy it and I feel I'm missing out on something clearly quite special. But I just can't connect with it. Some years back, I went to the London Jazz Festival, mainly to see Buddy Guy. Fantastic stuff (IMHO!) and thoroughly enjoyable etc etc. He was followed by Andy Summers with one of his jazz outfits. Well, I tried but it was no good. I knew I wasn't getting it when the audience whooped and cheered at certain points in his playing. I'm sure he'd played some ridiculously clever stuff but I couldn't make head nor tail of it and there was no emotional connection at all. I'm almost ashamed to say I walked out before the end of the performance. I guess I just wasn't dealt the 'jazz gene', or at least only a very tame one that allows me to enjoy some old Andre Previn or Oscar Peterson, but I suspect those examples would get me laughed out of any self-respecting jazz club. C'est la vie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Clarky' post='926546' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:16 PM']At the risk of turning you into a purple, vein-busting Hulk-type creature, Bilbo, what is so bad about the bassline of Moondance - sounds like (an admittedly pop-inflected) take on a standard Jazz walking bass line to me????[/quote] It doesn't swing, there is no internal logic to the lines and the sound sucks. Apart from that, its grrrrrreat.... If a player is playing a line in, say, A minor, it is not enough just to play the notes in an A minor scale. They need to start somewhere and go somewhere in a logical and musical way. The logic is defined by strong notes (1, 3, 5, 6 or 7) and weak notes (2, 4) and by the creative use of chromatics (everything else) but just playing ABDCEF or G in any order is a bit crap. When you are trying to swing, you need to get a sympathetic sound. The bass on Moondance is a kind of clunky ping ping ping ping ping that sits serparately in the mix and doesn't help the rest of the ensemble gel at all (the track has featured as a 'great' in music tecnology magazines - says a lot about the difference between music and technology). His timing is also uncontrolled and fails to groove in any way whatsoever. The only good thing about this performance is that almost anyone with a pulse can improve upon it. It is, of course, against the law to try.... If this sounds like a jazz walking bass line to you, I suggest you listen to anything with Ray Brown on it before you do anything else. You will be thrilled... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 I think that you can create a good walking line by just sticking to the strong chord tones as long as you can make it swing like crazy. Unfortunately,that's where 'Moondance' falls down for me-it just doesn't swing in the slightest. It's really stiff ,and doesn't seem to go anywhere. For what it's worth I don't mind the song,I'd just never use it as an example of,or class it,as Jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Bilbo' post='926602' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:57 PM']If this sounds like a jazz walking bass line to you, I suggest you listen to anything with Ray Brown on it before you do anything else.[/quote] I said it was a pop-inflected take on a walking bass line and I stand by that. I didn't say it was "correct". I'm just surprised it gets your goat so much as I assume that it has probably single-handedly got a fair number of pop fans to listen to Jazz. As for your suggestion about listening to other players, despite being best known on BC as a punk bassist, as it happens I have dozens of Jazz albums featuring not just Ray Brown ("We get requests" has been my wake-up CD on my alarm for the last two years), but also other DB greats including Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Oscar Pettiford, Charlie Mingus, Jimmy Blanton etc. And I can see that they "swing" Edited August 16, 2010 by Clarky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Bilbo' post='926602' date='Aug 16 2010, 03:57 PM']It doesn't swing, there is no internal logic to the lines and the sound sucks. Apart from that, its grrrrrreat.... If a player is playing a line in, say, A minor, it is not enough just to play the notes in an A minor scale. They need to start somewhere and go somewhere in a logical and musical way. THe logic is defined by strong notes (1, 3, 5, 6 or 7) and weak notes (2, 4) and by the creativ euse of chromatics (everything else) but just playing ABDCEF or G in any order is a bit crap. When you are trying to swing, you need to get a sympathetic sound. The bass on Moondance is a kind of clunky ping ping ping ping ping that sits serparately in th emix and doesn't help the rest of the ensemble gel at all. His timing is also uncontrolled and fails to groove in any way whatsoever. The only good thing about this performance is that almost anyone with a pulse can improve upon it. It is, of course, against the law to try.... If this sounds like a jazz walking bass line to you, I suggest you listen to anything with Ray Brown on it before you do anything else.[/quote] Oh, dear My band have just informed me I have to learn it! Should I turn myself in now or after? (and thanks for speeding the whole process up with the above, by the way, it means I have to listen to it less. Its just a HORRIBLE song! It DOTH suck indeed!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Clarky' post='926613' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:07 PM']I assume that it has probably single-handedly got a fair number of pop fans to listen to Jazz. As for your suggestion about listening to other players, despite being best known on BC as a punk bassist, as it happens I have dozens of Jazz albums featuring not just Ray Brown ("We get requests" has been my wake-up CD on my alarm for the last two years), but also other DB greats including Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Oscar Pettiford, Charlie Mingus, Jimmy Blanton etc. And I can see that they "swing" [/quote] God, I hope not. That's like suggesting that most rock fans got there because of Dollar. Your list of listening material is a great one. I just struggle to see how, having heard those guys, you can give Moondance any credibility at all Hey, Vinny. I'll let you off but the rest of the band should be done for corrupting a minor (key). Don't waste time learning the lines; they suck big time. Also, there is a half a bar dropped in there somewher because Van the Man can't count.... And that scatting? Makes me wince...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Bilbo' post='926640' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:25 PM']Your list of listening material is a great one. I just struggle to see how, having heard those guys, you can give Moondance any credibility at all [/quote] Didn't once say I like it, Bilbo! Just wondered why it irked you so. Can't stand Van the Man personally ... he is unfortunately a fave of Mrs C so I do get subjected, eg I saw him at Hammersmith Apollo two years ago and he did "swing" versions of all his classics (Brown-Eyed Girl in a jumping jive version anyone? Thought not) Even Mrs C was moved to leave before the end. Dire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 I was moved to leave before the start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Bilbo' post='926653' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:37 PM']I was moved to leave before the start [/quote] So is he sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='926279' date='Aug 16 2010, 11:17 AM']I had a feeling this thread would degenerate into yet another "Let's all show how jealous of the virtuoso players we are and give anything we don't understand a good ignorant kicking!" Perhaps those knocking Tal Wilkenfeld, Mark King, et al, should look a little closer to home for the bad bassist first...[/quote] Mark King is the boy, I couldn't and wouldn't argue otherwise. I'm the first to defend virtuoso players, the reason why Tal pops up here is because she is [i]not[/i] a virtuoso and yet inexplicably gets gigs that are top level. I expect to see a incredible bassists alongside Chick Corea, for instance - imagine going to see Chick and expecting Garrison, Wooten, Feraud etc etc and getting Tal plodding along instead. Her playing is IMO far below par for the people she plays with and it is to the detriment of the music as a whole! It'd be like going to see the John Mclaughlin trio in the late 80's and finding Adam Clayton standing in for Kai Eckhardt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB1 Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Clarky' post='926646' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:30 PM']Didn't once say I like it, Bilbo! Just wondered why it irked you so. Can't stand Van the Man personally ... he is unfortunately a fave of Mrs C so I do get subjected, eg I saw him at Hammersmith Apollo two years ago and he did "swing" versions of all his classics (Brown-Eyed Girl in a jumping jive version anyone? Thought not) Even Mrs C was moved to leave before the end. Dire[/quote] MB1. ...Jump...Jive?...So you missed the Whale then?...Coat Collected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Can I quote my own post on page two in support of Bilbo "That geezer who played on Moondance. For a four in the bar tune no rhythm, no pulse. It really offends. Yes really." I don't think he was badly advised, just a lousy player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Chris2112' post='926668' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:58 PM']Mark King is the boy, I couldn't and wouldn't argue otherwise. I'm the first to defend virtuoso players, the reason why Tal pops up here is because she is [i]not[/i] a virtuoso and yet inexplicably gets gigs that are top level. I expect to see a incredible bassists alongside Chick Corea, for instance - imagine going to see Chick and expecting Garrison, Wooten, Feraud etc etc and getting Tal plodding along instead. Her playing is IMO far below par for the people she plays with and it is to the detriment of the music as a whole! It'd be like going to see the John Mclaughlin trio in the late 80's and finding Adam Clayton standing in for Kai Eckhardt![/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrenleepoole Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='KevB' post='926650' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:34 PM'] [/quote] The Boosh are just pure genius, that just brought a huge smile to my face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Chris2112' post='926668' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:58 PM']Mark King is the boy, I couldn't and wouldn't argue otherwise. I'm the first to defend virtuoso players, the reason why Tal pops up here is because she is [i]not[/i] a virtuoso and yet inexplicably gets gigs that are top level. I expect to see a incredible bassists alongside Chick Corea, for instance - imagine going to see Chick and expecting Garrison, Wooten, Feraud etc etc and getting Tal plodding along instead. Her playing is IMO far below par for the people she plays with and it is to the detriment of the music as a whole! It'd be like going to see the John Mclaughlin trio in the late 80's and finding Adam Clayton standing in for Kai Eckhardt![/quote] I seriously think it's a good job Tal Wilkenfeld isn't on this forum, as I'm sure she might be a tad offended by your comments. Edited August 16, 2010 by Pete Academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fingerz Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 [quote name='Chris2112' post='926668' date='Aug 16 2010, 04:58 PM']Mark King is the boy, I couldn't and wouldn't argue otherwise. I'm the first to defend virtuoso players, the reason why Tal pops up here is because she is [i]not[/i] a virtuoso and yet inexplicably gets gigs that are top level. I expect to see a incredible bassists alongside Chick Corea, for instance - imagine going to see Chick and expecting Garrison, Wooten, Feraud etc etc and getting Tal plodding along instead. Her playing is IMO far below par for the people she plays with and it is to the detriment of the music as a whole! It'd be like going to see the John Mclaughlin trio in the late 80's and finding Adam Clayton standing in for Kai Eckhardt![/quote] OMG. Or Mark King playing for Chick?!! Horses for courses. Like I said earlier, we should remember that bandleaders pick these people. If you find it disappointing, it's your opinion of the choice of line up rather than the individual. They got called. Think maybe of a contrast from the Garrisons etc as being what the bandleader is feeling for their music. There's more to music than fireworks of technique. I agree with an above point that it's a good job Tal isn't a member here! Blimey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 @ Bilbo & Clarky... Have you listened to the Bauble version of Moondance in any detail? I actually had the chance to play the arrangement, as Jeff Hooper has the charts - While I played it, I thought to myself, "What a load of nonsense chaff!" But on hearing it back, as a whole, the seriously odd bassline doesn't work in straight harmony - It works on a completely different level - Almost via the overtones. Whether it was originally a player's line, or a very clever arrangement, I'm not sure, but definitely worth a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rasher80 Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 Am i the only person who LIKES Peter Hook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 [quote name='rasher80' post='927575' date='Aug 17 2010, 02:14 PM']Am i the only person who LIKES Peter Hook? [/quote] Nope. I like his work in Joy Division and early New Order a lot (think he started repeating his tricks later on in new Order). The bass line from '24 hours' is an all-time classic to count with some of the Motown great bass lines IMHO - and its difficult to think a bass line could ever fit that song better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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