The truth about different basses cutting through

[faceman]

I've always wondered what the opinions of people are on this one, but how do you think the different basses/styles of basses cut through the mix? There's always talk of how P and Js sit in the mix but what are people's experience with them in a band setting?

My personal experience has been that my Rickenbacker has occasionally sounded weak but often fantastic. The StingRay cuts through anything with no EQ what so ever. I've heard a fair few situations where a P has been mostly unheard in the mix (Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac), which got me wondering about this.

I'm of the opinion that with the right engineer and EQing, anything could cut through and have presence but that's not always possible in gigs! Thoughts? So, throw your hats and let's see what people think

[Happy Jack]

I appreciate that this isn't necessarily where you're going with this thread, but don't lose sight of the fact that you don't always want the bass to "cut through".

Much of the time, we're there to provide the under-pinning ... as much felt as heard.

On a lot of the stuff we play in my covers band, a bass tone which cuts through with ease and can be clearly heard all the time would be bloody irritating!

[Doctor J]

I think the problem with bass cutting through or not is purely down to the player - their technique and how they EQ. I've never encountered a model of bass which wasn't capable of cutting through, just the players change.

[faceman]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='927390' date='Aug 17 2010, 11:43 AM']I appreciate that this isn't necessarily where you're going with this thread, but don't lose sight of the fact that you don't always want the bass to "cut through".

Much of the time, we're there to provide the under-pinning ... as much felt as heard.

On a lot of the stuff we play in my covers band, a bass tone which cuts through with ease and can be clearly heard all the time would be bloody irritating![/quote]

Oh no, I totally agree! We aren't all Jaco and don't need to be at the front of what is going on. Grooving away for everyone else is just as important too.

What I was referring to were the cases when I have seen bands, both pro and amateur that that bass has no presence in the sound at all, and whether the bass itself has anything to do with it. Sort of do people think that a particular bass has a natural ability to cut through...

[BigRedX]

Completely subjective. Also completely dependent upon the style of music and the other musical instruments being used.

A bass sound that nicely underpins/cuts through one band may be completely lost/annoyingly intrustive in another.

The best bass set ups (bass/effects/amp/speaker) allow you to get the right tone that is appropriate to the of the style of music and the instrumentation.

[Ou7shined]

A lot of it is down to the sound-guy and how he arranges and finds space for similar frequencies which may emanate from different instruments. But for our purposes, in situations where sound engineering may not be available or possible, bass frequencies don't travel through "band air" as well as higher frequencies do so if you had a bass like a Stingray or backline that produce more mid frequencies than normal yet not overpoweringly so it seems to piggyback the bass frequencies into your audiences ears. I used to have a lovely Schroeder cab which when played quietly at home sounded too mid humpy it almost hurt yet at gigging level it projected my sound beautifully and filled the venue without emphasising the mids. I don't know why.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Ou7shined

[chris_b]

I think that "cutting through" has less to do with the bass than the tone used by the other players in your band and by the speaker cab you use. If your guitarist or keyboard player sits in your frequency no bass will satisfactorily cut through and a muddy cab will stop even the best bass from being heard properly.

[Wil]

It's all in the EQ, and some basses have a natural mid presence. It was driven home to me when I saw a bassist swapping between a MM Sterling and a Warwick Thumb part way through a gig without any EQ changes that I could see - the Sterling was lost in the mix, where the Thumb jumped out and punched you in the gut.

Edited August 17, 2010 by Wil

[josh3184]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='927407' date='Aug 17 2010, 11:52 AM']A lot of it is down to the sound-guy and how he arranges and finds space for similar frequencies which may emanate from different instruments. But for our purposes, in situations where sound engineering may not be available or possible, bass frequencies don't travel through "band air" as well as higher frequencies do so if you had a bass like a Stingray or backline that produce more mid frequencies than normal yet not overpoweringly so it seems to piggyback the bass frequencies into your audiences ears. I used to have a lovely Schroeder cab which when played quietly at home sounded too mid humpy it almost hurt yet at gigging level it projected my sound beautifully and filled the venue without emphasising the mids. I don't know why.[/quote]

+1

I've often EQ'd on the fly in a band practice to a point where it sounds great and cuts through brilliantly, only to then play with the same settings by myself and it sounding like a horrible honking mess. I find that my ability to cut through is impacted most, not by my rig, but by what frequencies the other instruments have decided to occupy. From there on you've gotta tailor your sound to a nice gap in between and hope that the end result is a good un. I find good bass tones often cut through great when you're recording but will just get bullied out of the way by the guitars when played live unless you do some tweaking.

[JTUK]

Consider the sound of the bass... P-Bass and Ric can have an edge that cuts thro, but I agree, it is how the other guys EQ their kit that will have more of an influence.

Gtrs needs to roll off their bass and be able to get a sound with that... a lot would completely miss that point and rock up with the 4x12 and tray of pedals.. you are really on the back foot then as it becomes a quest to be as loud as everyone else, IME.

Drums needs to be tuned to stay out of your range and your bass should sit along side the kick..you don't want or need them both bouncing around the same freqs.
Keys..? left hand, ... stay out of the way of a full range full-on piano player.

Mixes then become mixes rather than a wall of sound..you can get punchy, rather than way too loud.

FWIW, I set my basses up to underpin the band but to be able to jump right out if need be. It might take a change of technique or style to do that but I prefer it this way round if my bass isn't a solo instrument.

In some cases, basses can be too clean and clinical or down-right mid-range to support the band so you need to have this agreed amongst yourselves what you are trying to do.


I think the bass you use is the least part of it...
But...MM basses can and do cut through a lot of stuff...but to do that, you have this god-damn awful clank going on all the time.

It needs more thought that that, IMV.

Sometimes, when you turn up at gigs and see the basses, you just know what is going to be going on...

[wateroftyne]

I don't really like to cut through. I like to feel like I'm holding it up.

Most of the bands I play in - by chance - leave a nice big gap in the bottom-end of the spectrum for me to drop into.

[Rayman]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='927395' date='Aug 17 2010, 11:45 AM']I think the problem with bass cutting through or not is purely down to the player - their technique and how they EQ. I've never encountered a model of bass which wasn't capable of cutting through, just the players change.[/quote]

100%, and also the room you're playing in makes a big difference. I might be the only person on the site who had a problem getting a Stingray to cut through. I never did get to the bottom of it, but I think it was probably down to a 2EQ and lack of mids. No problem at all with the G&Ls, because I find them so much more versatile and controlable, but for pure live punch and honk I always found passive Fender Jazzes were pretty much the best.

[LukeFRC]

there was a bit in the status thread where I was asking outtoplayjazz about something... to paraphrase
he said how a fender jazz would sit in the back of the mix whereas a status would be clear articulate and cut through.

Thing is i don't doubt that both fender and status can make amazing basses but they do sit differently in the mix. (and this helped me decide a fender would be better for me than a status!)

Likewise i play at cvhurch with the same people and the same (ashdown ) amp. Warwick streamer or P bass? Well if I want a thunderous low(ish) end rumble to underpin everything the.... P bass, if I want something that will cut through, yet take up less space in the mix... the warwick
depends on the music.....

[Lfalex v1.1]

Last Sunday was my first audition/rehearsal in about 2 years.
Also my first in a bass/gtr/vox/drums line-up. Every other band has had me dodging 2 guitars..

I took 2 basses- Yamaha Attitude and Status Streamline.
Streamline was as superb on its first "noisy" outing, and you could really hear it if I dug in or moved my plucking hand position towards or away from the bridge. Sounded like it was going above the guitar a lot of the time due to its clarity and harmonic output.

The Yamaha reminded me why I like it so much. Huge bottom end from the Neck HB, and the edgier, more brittle tone from the specially wound P pick-up can be used to add definition in a band context. I still can't quite get it to "sing" and it seems to lack the top end I'd like, but in a band context, it sounds very big.

Neither was ultimately the better, but they were radically different.

This week's rehearsal? Warwick Infinity & Squier VMJ....

[51m0n]

'Cutting through' depends entirely upon how resilient what you are trying to cut through is.

In other words if the bass/player/strings/amp/cab/room set up is strong in a area of frequencies that the rest of the players are weak in , you will be heard clearly in those frequencies.

They may or may not sound good, but thats a different issue.

You will not ever win the 'sounding good band trophy' by trying to overpower everyone else in frequencies that sound good with a bass on its own, all that happens is a noise war; you must instead ask them to make some space for you there.

When mixing down a recorded track the sound engineer has massive control over instruments due to the lack of spill between them (many reasons and techniques exist to ensure this) and so can literal carve holes in one instrument with eq to slot another instrument into (often with more eq). This is frequency mixing, and its a total art to do really well.

In a live context you dont have the seperation to do this, so the players have to do it collectively or you will sound like a mess and volume wars will ensue.

Cutting through implies upper mids and top end, and as the human ear/brain are designed to be ultra sensitive in the upper mids that is where most people notice things 'popping out'. However with judicious live sound freuency mixing you can make deeper low mid and bass sounds have enough space to be really clearly and distinctly heard. The thing is that they will never 'pop out' like an instrument dominating the upper mids will, just because that is how the ear/brain work.

IMO Any bass can be made to 'cut through' if that is your intent, how hard you have to manipulate the sound depends upon the above...

[Pete Academy]

It's all about EQ.

[Mr. Foxen]

It's all about more amps. Cold War style, make them know they won't win a volume war. Except in this sort of war there is a winner: Umph, he is the guy I send bust amps to.

[stingrayPete1977]

This thread is always going to turn into a mines better than yours situation (I can see the foundations being laid already!) So for what its worth how many people have commented on the Chris thingbobs Status lack of cutting through even in a 3 piece band? (at least 2 threads that I know of already).
This is why I like 2 basses at a gig, which is another recent thread I know but my Jazz has a smoothness that the Rays cant produce and the Jazz cant punch like an MM but they all have there place in different bands and music styles.For what its worth the pre-EB has alot more smoothness than the EB but not at all Jazz like but can still thump the lows out hence the reggae scene pre EB fondness.

[martthebass]

IMHO a lot of the nuances between different basses can be resolved with clever application of onboard and offboard EQing. Even an EB 3 band Ray can be made to sound as smooth as silk in the right hands and a pre-EB to sound like a ropey dog in the wrong hands.

[xgsjx]

In my bands, I don't so much as go for cutting thru but go for a very subby sine like sound with a couple of the mid frequencies around the 400-600hz left there for when I'm up the register playing melodies when there's just acoustic instruments playing.
I find my Ibby with flats makes for a great bassy sound (put thru the mf's to tailor the sound further) , but looking to get a 5 or 6 stringer that can produce some seriously subby sounds (maybe even a fretless).