LH500 -> Super Twelve vs MB sa450 -> Bergantino ae410 comparison...

[51m0n]

OK a couple of weeks ago now Alex was kind enough to lend his Super Twelve, Big One and Avalon U5 and power amp to some friends of mine who are looking to get a first decent gigging bass rig together.

I couldnt resist and took my rig and PLux's LH500 along so we could do some further comparisons to see what worked. The LH500 is very likely to be the amp the go for as its such good value for money, what we didnt know was how the Super Twelve would perform alongside the BigOne or how either would sound next to my rig (see sig).

We assembled at Monster Rehearsal Studios for the comparison and set up alongside the very tired old Hartke rig there. The most notible thing about which is that it has to be dimed to keep up with the drums at all, in contrast my rig doesnt get past 10 O'clock before the walls are in danger of caving in.

I recorded it all on my Zoom H4n so we could listen back at sane levels (I'm not kidding at one point I thought my eyesight had gone very very 'wrong', only to discover that the volume was causing it to blur!).

Here are snippets of the same track played through my rig (Markbass sa450 -> Bergantino ae410) and the LH500 -> Super Twelve, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to have a guess at which is which. There was judicious use of amp eq in both cases, nothing much though, and the tweeters levels were played with. The tracks are Normalised to -3dB but no other processing has been done at all. This topic shouldn't self destruct at any point in the proceedings!

As you will soon hear they like a bit of fuzzy bass (there was a Boss OD of some sort in there), the bass was an Ibby SR300. Not that that is of any consequence....

Enjoy!

Edited August 20, 2010 by 51m0n

[Dood]

Ahhhh!! I'm game!

Firstly, it's going to be quite difficult to tell given the positioning of the recording device and the resonance of the room I can hear which is muddying the sound a bit - but actually, PLEASE don't take that as a criticism - it's a plus point for your comparison - because that's pretty much what it's gonna sound like in a gig environment anyway to a listener isn't it?

Makes it all a bit more fun!

Ok, to my ears, track two sounds a little 'plummier'. The bottom end blooms in the low bass and the middle seems a tad less agressive - although REALLY hard to tell with distortion involved. Sound one is a little bass shy in comparison and found that the odd bit of articulation cut through. - Now - if this were listening to some sims of a speaker cabinet using this information, I would say that the 12's were the first track and the 15 of the Big ONe was Track two.

Given Alex's attention to detail and design - it has been a difficult comparison.

[Dood]

p.s. The Hartke is a great amp head! Very pleased with my LH1000

[51m0n]

Hold on, the Big One isnt in there, Dood!

There is an Bergantino ae410, and there is a Barefaced Super12.

The BigOne is fair bit easier to spot from the recording so I didnt put it up

The point is how hard it is in a 'real world-ish' example to spot the diff between the SuperTwelve and a Berg ae410.

Which is which....

Edited August 18, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='dood' post='928479' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:34 AM']p.s. The Hartke is a great amp head! Very pleased with my LH1000[/quote]

Absolutely, they are an amazing piece of kit for the cash, love Plux's LH500!

[Dood]

OH!! That's my fault for reading the text and not the title!

[quote]"OK a couple of weeks ago now Alex was kind enough to lend his Super Twelve, Big One and Avalon U5 and power amp to some friends of mine who are looking to get a first decent gigging bass rig together.
"[/quote]

So I assumed by reading the above that you had a Big One and a Super Twelve! lol's!

[51m0n]

[quote name='dood' post='928488' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:39 AM']OH!! That's my fault for reading the text and not the title!



So I assumed by reading the above that you had a Big One and a Super Twelve! lol's![/quote]

Yeah, oops didnt make it clear enough, my fault , edited now!

I particularly like the od since so many people want to hear what these cabs sound like with some grindy grindy going on, its pretty unusual to hear an ae410 like that, and I think the Super12 did a great job too!

Edited August 18, 2010 by 51m0n

[Dood]

Actually - I haven't read the text properly at all! - One amp with one cab and another amp with another. Hmmm... not really a fair comparison given the tonal differences in the amplifier's character. The MB has an active EQ circuit that boosts bass around 40hz - the LH500 is all passive and can not add that kind of bass girth to the tone.

Hmm, given that - I reckon that the MarkBass head is tone two and the LH500 is tone One.

[51m0n]

[quote name='dood' post='928498' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:44 AM']Actually - I haven't read the text properly at all! - One amp with one cab and another amp with another. Hmmm... not really a fair comparison given the tonal differences in the amplifier's character. The MB has an active EQ circuit that boosts bass around 40hz - the LH500 is all passive and can not add that kind of bass girth to the tone.

Hmm, given that - I reckon that the MarkBass head is tone two and the LH500 is tone One.[/quote]

Who said anything about fair?

It is a real comparison of two different rigs playing the same piece of music in the same environment recorded from the same position, albeit the rigs were next to each other.

I like your logic, not that I'm saying you're right or wrong though, its just exactly the way my mind works too!

[Dood]

[quote name='51m0n' post='928516' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:57 AM']Who said anything about fair?

It is a real comparison of two different rigs playing the same piece of music in the same environment recorded from the same position, albeit the rigs were next to each other.

I like your logic, not that I'm saying you're right or wrong though, its just exactly the way my mind works too![/quote]


He he!! Yes, I like your style! Doesn't have to be fair! Good game, good game! - I love the overall tone of both of the rigs actually - they cut through with the added dirt. What are you using for your drive?

[51m0n]

[quote name='dood' post='928574' date='Aug 18 2010, 01:01 PM']He he!! Yes, I like your style! Doesn't have to be fair! Good game, good game! - I love the overall tone of both of the rigs actually - they cut through with the added dirt. What are you using for your drive?[/quote]

Drive was supplied by a wee little Boss OD pedal of some sort, yellow beastie, about 4 knobs on, including a bass/treble, drive, level and maybe some sort of selctor, dunno, boss arent my area of expertise .

The trick to get them to cut through was not to turn the tweeters all the way off, just down a bit. Worked a treat!

Its not me playing by the way, I cant take any credit for that at all, I just supplied a rig for people to a/b against (a 'known', if only by me).

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='51m0n' post='928447' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:01 AM'](I'm not kidding at one point I thought my eyesight had gone very very 'wrong', only to discover that the volume was causing it to blur!).[/quote]

I asked Alex specifically about achieving this affect and he suggested I might need a second Barefaced cab. Good to know one will do.

[quote name='51m0n' post='928614' date='Aug 18 2010, 01:33 PM']Drive was supplied by a wee little Boss OD pedal of some sort, yellow beastie, about 4 knobs on, including a bass/treble, drive, level and maybe some sort of selctor, dunno, boss arent my area of expertise .[/quote]

Boss ODB3 in not sounding like AIDS shocker.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='928652' date='Aug 18 2010, 01:59 PM']I asked Alex specifically about achieving this affect and he suggested I might need a second Barefaced cab. Good to know one will do.



[b]Boss ODB3 in not sounding like AIDS shocker.[/b][/quote]

HAHAHAAAA!!!!

Yeah, I avoid Boss pedals since forever, - largely cos the first ones I ever played with at a mates house were ultra noisy, could have been the fault of his Westone Thunder III, but I doubt it, that was a great bass! Those turd brown Boss Bass-Crud-i-Sound pedals, yuck!

Definitely achieved wobbly eyeness, may have been the BigOne and Alex's Avalon/Quest set up, was very loud, but the Super12 was no slouch at all, totally capably of drowning out the rest of the band completely.

I will state right now that every rig we tried (with the exception of the knackered in house Hartke, which was awful) sounded awesome, all just different flavours of "bass player's wet dream"....

[Musicman20]

Ive voted: 1. is the Super 12. Either of them could it it tbh. Very similar tone...

Edited August 18, 2010 by Musicman20

[ShergoldSnickers]

The first sample sounds more even, with more of the fundamental note showing through. The second sample sounds a bit lumpy in the bass to me, and with less of the fundamental note. I'll stick my neck out - sample one is the Super Twelve combination.

[alexclaber]

I'd be interested to hear how different the Big One sounds on the recording - can you post that one up too? Having heard all three together it was quite enlightening! One thing I would say is that you can't really tell much about the lows from a recording like this because the room was relatively small so the room modes tend to dominate, so placement of speaker vs walls/floor/ceiling vs mic will have more effect assuming the cab is running clean.

If I remember rightly the mic was about equidistant from the guitar and bass amps and slightly further from the drums. And it was really rather loud in there, so you can imagine how loud the bass was to be that forward in the mix!

It would be fun to do a similar thing with an even louder drummer playing a bigger kit, a more annoying guitarist and in a bigger room, so we could push the cabs to their limits and see what happens to the tone then.

By the way, I can't tell which is which - I think I can, then I listen again and change my mind! If the cabs were being driven by the same amp with the same EQ I could quite easily, but then you'd hope so wouldn't you?!

[Dood]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='928970' date='Aug 18 2010, 07:40 PM']If the cabs were being driven by the same amp with the same EQ I could quite easily, but then you'd hope so wouldn't you?! [/quote]

Hey Alex, nice to see ya on the board!

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at in my comments above. I've owned a couple of MB heads and obviously the Hartke LH is my current rig, so I know the differences here in my front room - but it's alot more difficult with two unknown cabinets in an unknown room! But yeah, I like these real world tests!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='dood' post='928990' date='Aug 18 2010, 07:54 PM']Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at in my comments above.[/quote]

Though conversely I could probably make one cab sound like the other and vice versa by how I played the bass!

It dawned on me recently that any half-decent bassist could easily make an inferior (by whatever criteria) cab sound superior in an AB test simply by playing louder/better when demo-ing that cab.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='928970' date='Aug 18 2010, 07:40 PM']It would be fun to do a similar thing with an even louder drummer playing a bigger kit, a more annoying guitarist and in a bigger room, so we could push the cabs to their limits and see what happens to the tone then.[/quote]

Caricatures might be reforming, so that could be done. The drummer is loud and annoying, so bonus.

[Wolverinebass]

I'd say it was Track 1.

I'm interested in hearing what the Big One sounded like in comparison. Any chance of that getting posted?

[51m0n]

I'll dig out the Big One file tomorrow, I think I have that one playing a different track with clean bass as well.

Alex had his ear defenders in the whole time, I took mine out for a minute - it was like getting punched in the face Fantastic!

Apparently all the guy who works there could hear that night was us lot.

Oh and Dave is not a lightweight hitter on the drums and although the kit is a bit pants tht is his Mapex Saturn snare, which is very very tasty indeed.

So yes it was hugely loud, by any standards, although the guitar was not fighting the same sonic territory as the bass in the clip, so its really easy to hear everything. Even if it was I think the loser would have ben the drums not the bass....

Just a point to note, the bassist in question plays with the lightest touch of anyone I've ever seen, really really gentle....

And thanks again Alex, it was a blinding evening, very very informative. I'm pretty certain you've got another sale on your hands in the near future, the Super Twelve was brilliant.

Edited August 18, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='dood' post='928990' date='Aug 18 2010, 07:54 PM']Hey Alex, nice to see ya on the board!

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at in my comments above. I've owned a couple of MB heads and obviously the Hartke LH is my current rig, so I know the differences here in my front room - but it's alot more difficult with two unknown cabinets in an unknown room! But yeah, I like these real world tests![/quote]

To clear up why we did it like we did, basically I know how loud my rig is, and what it sounds like (even in that room), I also know how loud Plux's LH500 is. The point of pairing up the LH500 with the BigOne and the Super12, rather than the MB head was to see if it could deliver enough beans with those cabs, given that its by far the most likely choice of amp for them. If they were looking to get an MB head I'd have stuck with that head.

The reason I compared the LH500 and each Barefaced cab with my whole rig is simple, its the best rig I've ever owned, and as good as any I've ever heard, if Alex's cabs sounded good alongside it when driven by the LH500, then they would sound great against most other rigs.

The reason they all sound similar is also straight forward, they got a sound out of my rig that was as close to what they wanted to hear as possible, they then needed to see if the same sound - or something very similar, could be achieved with the other rigs. This isnt a case of trying to hear the differences in the cabs flat and clean, its trying to see which works best in situ. Flat and clean would have been a huge amount easier for everyone to nail the different cabs - they do each have a very distinctive flavour thats quite obvious - this is a far more real world test than that though, this is how well those rigs could achieve a desired sound. WHich is more important at the end of the day. I dont care how great a cab copes with flat eq, if the sound I want needs it to deal with a 6dB boost at 80Hz after all!

In case anyone is in any doubt I think the Barefaced cabs aquitted themselves splendidly, the super12 is very very punchy, and sounds lovely. The BigOne, well thats the daddy, but it really does like to be fed a lot of juice, and my rig, well thats still my favourite, but its very close!

Edited August 18, 2010 by 51m0n

[johnnylager]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='928652' date='Aug 18 2010, 01:59 PM']I asked Alex specifically about achieving this affect and he suggested I might need a second Barefaced cab. Good to know one will do.[/quote]
Yes, one will do.

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='51m0n' post='929235' date='Aug 18 2010, 11:34 PM']The point of pairing up the LH500 with the BigOne and the Super12, rather than....... .........The BigOne, well thats the daddy, but it really does like to be fed a lot of juice, and my rig, well thats still my favourite, but its very close![/quote]
I'd be really interested to know how well the LH500 powered the BigOne 51m0n, as I'm powering mine with a similarly rated amp, but I've not had the opportunity to really let it rip yet. How much further round the clock did you have to wind the gain on the amp to get the same apparent output as the Super 12 for example?

[51m0n]

OK here we go, after much mucking about he is the LH500 into the BigOne.

A couple of notes for this, we were struggling a bit with getting volume into the front of the amps because the bassist was such a gentle player and theSR300 it turns out is a very very low output bass. As the LH500 has np input gain in the end we just plugged into the passive input on the LH500, and all was well. Unfortunately we probably were so worried about getting enough volume that we may have got a little bit too much on this one.

So the bass is a bit loud in the recording I think, however this is where my eyeballs were going fuzzy, and the BigOne was pushing huge amounts of air out of the ports - the guitarist commented on this and he was on the other side of the room (not a big room but hey!), he could feel a breeze at about 7 feet away.

In conclusion the LH500 will drive the BigOne to very very high levels given a decent input level (no seperate input gain you see), easily enough to gig with, just dont be afraid to really dime the volume and give it the beans!