My very first attempt with my DAW - comments please

[Ou7shined]

So I've got some riffs that I've been working on for an idea for some fresh stuff (a change in direction for myself) that I'm hoping to take further with new band I'm starting. I decided to knock up one of my new songs with my newly acquired Line6 Pod Studio UX2 so the guitarist (the only other member of this project so far) could learn it. I let him hear it today and he was rather blown away by my first ever attempt at digital home recording. So with his praise still ringing in my ears and my head swelling by the moment I thought I'd let you guys listen to it and pick it to shreds.

Actually I'd love to get some pointers from a technical point of view on where I can improve what I have.

WARNING! The whole track took 2 days to produce and that included learning the software from scratch so don't expect too much. What we have here are all first takes (except some of the guitar harmonies which I worked out while looping the built track) including the very embarrassing out of tune and out of time vocals - I AM NOT A SINGER - I just laid some lame vocals on to help clarify for the guitarist the idea of what I want to do with the track (this of course meant that I had to come up with some lyrics - something I hardly ever do). I reckon if I find time to do it again I could put on a more manly voice but the idea is to get in a proper vocalist for the job.

I was plugged directly into the UX2 and used both Gearbox and Pod Farm 2 for the amp and effects and a specially bought copy of Reaper to lay the tracks on.

bass = Stingray
guitars = old Jim Deacon Strat I use for riff writing
drums = courtesy of my Korg PX4D
mic = Beringer C-1

Ladles and Jelly-spoons. It is my dubious pleasure to present Supergone (draft version).

[attachment=57038:supergone.mp3]

I should explain that I haven't "mastered" this track, the guitarist was round this avo and wanted a copy so I just rendered it as it was on my laptop there and then - I have a feeling that it may be a bit quiet overall but I'm fairly happy with the individual levels on each track but I'd like to hear what you think. I didn't start a new track for each instrument phrase (something I wish I had done now) instead I have a track per instrument. So each instrument runs with the same volume and effects through to the end. I can alway split them and bump them to new tracks later if I do master this.

I noticed that when I made it into an mp3 that the track really came to life as the process has crushed all the parts together rather than the components all being individually recognisable in the sound stage. I knew the mp3 process would do this but somehow I thought it would have the opposite effect on my ears. Is this a bad thing?

As I said this is my first crack at this. It has made me appreciate more the job of the sound engineer a lot more as I noticed that even though I agonised over the sounds of the instruments, once played along with the other tracks they sounded $hit because of how the different frequencies interacted [b]against[/b] each other so I had to go off and find new sounds that would sit better in the mix with engineer's ears rather than musician's ears. I'm still not happy with the funky guitar in the bridge part. Speaking of which the outro (which uses that funky riff) goes on a bit but that's only because I intend for the guitarist to try out some solo w@nkery stuff in there - stuff that I'm not good enough to do so it's left kinda blank.


Thanks for listening.

[CraigPlaysBass]

I really liked it bit RHCP-esque I though.

[urb]

In a nutshell I really like it, warts and all, it's all come together well, it sounds like it's the kind of tune that's 'more than the sum of it's parts' which is a compliment... meaning it all works rather well together

As a first attempt it's very good, the more you record the better you'll get at every aspect of it, and don't worry about mastering this - I don't think it needs it - IMO it's better to wait until you've made something you're really proud of then take it to a pro mastering person and let them do it.

Well done, time for the next one...

Mike

[munkonthehill]

let me be the first to say top job mate.

unfortunatly i cant really coment on your recording standard as I have no idea about that,,,,but the tune is wicked.

Very RHCP orientated and I love it. the bass lines are very nice mate and nicce funky guitar riffs going on.

Well done mate and sign me up for the EP (as long as every EP comes with a free pingray of coursehahahahaha)

[arsenic]

I feel compelled to echo Urb's comments.......definately greater than the sum of it's parts.

Yes - it is very RHCP in it's overall sound, but in a good way

I have found in the past, that, occasionally, crunching down to MP3, has actually improved the sound of the recorded components.

Top job mate - good luck with the new project.

[Ou7shined]

Hey thanks guys.

I'm used to writing more heavy type stuff but I won't deny the Chili's influence in the new stuff although I must say I've probably not listened to them since Stadium Arcadium first came out.

[quote name='urb' post='930379' date='Aug 19 2010, 10:42 PM']...As a first attempt it's very good, the more you record the better you'll get at every aspect of it...[/quote]

I'd really like to try more of this. What do you think could I do better the next time?

[urb]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='930642' date='Aug 20 2010, 10:07 AM']Hey thanks guys.

I'm used to writing more heavy type stuff but I won't deny the Chili's influence in the new stuff although I must say I've probably not listened to them since Stadium Arcadium first came out.



I'd really like to try more of this. What do you think could I do better the next time?[/quote]

well speaking from personal experience, I've found that after a few years of mucking about trying to get better at recording and 'producing' my own stuff I feel like I can actually 'visualize' the overall vibe of the track in my head better - so that may mean I have a strong intro, more dynamics across the whole tune, and not be afraid to strip things back to almost nothing and then build up the layers to create more drama and tension in the song. But like I say these are all things that come with time and it takes a while to find better sounds and better techniques with adding effects and simply arranging the song.

So to answer your question I don't think you need to worry about doing things 'better' - what's great about your track is that it has character and reflects your musical influences and instincts - so my advice is just keep following those instincts and trust your own musical decisions - recording is just like developing your own style on the bass - and the more you develop your style of recording the more distinctive and interesting it will be... that's all I did

Hope that helps - if you have any technical questions I again suggest you check out Youtube as there are millions of really helpful vids up there on all sorts of recording techniques and tips.

Cheers

Mike

[51m0n]

Couldn't resist, here's a cheeky bit of mastering for you

Couldn't bring myself to smash the thing to bits a la Stadium, but its pushing pretty hard, bit of eq'ing, some (very subtle) saturation, and a fiddle (subtle) with the stereo width too. All done in 5 minutes on a set of cans, so it may sound plop in the real world! All done in the box, no expensive hardware kit used at all. I am nothing more than an amateur hack at this at best, but I enjoy having a go!

Damned fine first effort though. You've got the most important thing right, its a catchy toon, cant underestimate the importance of that.

Its a bit dry, maybe, but the kind of reverb you need would be a gluey ambience type of thing (possible on everything, even just on the two buss, but very very very subtle) that you dont so much hear as feel. You could duck the bass off the kick too, so they aren't fighting for sonic territory so much.

Going to mp3 is not the way to glue stuff together, its a pretty nasty process sonically. A decent bit of buss compression will sort that out far better (alongside the ambience verb). May only need a couple of dB to make it come together. Another nice trick on a group buss is some tape saturation emulation (again subtle).

You should be able (depending on the DAW) to program level and effects changes on a single track, should you wish to, but it is often easier to split the tracks as you suggest. Watch out for the crossover curves if you do this, you will want them super steep!)

Mixing quiet in the box is not bad thing, Mastering guys often like a mix that peaks at no more than -6dBfs to give them headroom to play with, and there are some pretty high profile advocates of recording and mixing very quietly (providing you go for 24bit).

[Ou7shined]

Yeah thanks. I think I get it, more dynamics but strip things back.

Nah seriously I do though. I think despite my inexperience with DAW I already do try to think in terms of the dynamics of a song when I write them but what I'm unsure about is things like where the vocals sit in the mix or how subtle you should try and make the rhythm section compared to the lead instruments. I could just go and listen to CDs etc. but I know that as a musician that what I hear isn't necessarily what other people hear - for example there are songs that I have listened to for years that I still don't know what the lyrics are because that is usually the last thing that I pick up on whereas many non musicians (our listening public) are oblivious to everything except the melody and lyrics. You're right I'll probably pick it up as time goes by. I guess it is (as Gok Wan reportedly said ) all about the confidence.

Cheers for the tip, I'll take a butchers at yootoob and see if I can find out more.

[51m0n]

Oh, and bin the drum machine, download Bluenoise MyDrumset. Its a free VST, gives you acces to a pretty well recorded Ludwig (IIRC) but you get to throw your own effects on each mic, which means a genuinely more realistic result IMO...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='51m0n' post='930790' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:08 PM']Couldn't resist, here's a cheeky bit of mastering for you

Couldn't bring myself to smash the thing to bits a la Stadium, but its pushing pretty hard, bit of eq'ing, some (very subtle) saturation, and a fiddle (subtle) with the stereo width too. All done in 5 minutes on a set of cans, so it may sound plop in the real world! All done in the box, no expensive hardware kit used at all. I am nothing more than an amateur hack at this at best, but I enjoy having a go!

Damned fine first effort though. You've got the most important thing right, its a catchy toon, cant underestimate the importance of that.

Its a bit dry, maybe, but the kind of reverb you need would be a gluey ambience type of thing (possible on everything, even just on the two buss, but very very very subtle) that you dont so much hear as feel. You could duck the bass off the kick too, so they aren't fighting for sonic territory so much.

Going to mp3 is not the way to glue stuff together, its a pretty nasty process sonically. A decent bit of buss compression will sort that out far better (alongside the ambience verb). May only need a couple of dB to make it come together. Another nice trick on a group buss is some tape saturation emulation (again subtle).

You should be able (depending on the DAW) to program level and effects changes on a single track, should you wish to, but it is often easier to split the tracks as you suggest. Watch out for the crossover curves if you do this, you will want them super steep!)

Mixing quiet in the box is not bad thing, Mastering guys often like a mix that peaks at no more than -6dBfs to give them headroom to play with, and there are some pretty high profile advocates of recording and mixing very quietly (providing you go for 24bit).[/quote]

Nice one. You're absolutely right about the lack of reverb in that track.
I have some on the backing vocals to give them distance from the main vox and a minute amount of "small room" on the guitars (I think you can hear it in the bass intro) but again it's one of those things I need to learn about.
I was worried about the kick before. I'll notch down a bit. Cheers.
I find your mix a little too bright for my ears. Do you think mine lacked top end?

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='930809' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:23 PM']Nice one. You're absolutely right about the lack of reverb in that track.
I have some on the backing vocals to give them distance from the main vox and a minute amount of "small room" on the guitars (I think you can hear it in the bass intro) but again it's one of those things I need to learn about.
I was worried about the kick before. I'll notch down a bit. Cheers.
I find your mix a little too bright for my ears. Do you think mine lacked top end?[/quote]

The kick isn't too loud, its fighting the bass, set up a compressor on the bass, but make it listen (key listen or sidechain) form the kick, when the kick happens it will duck the bass just for a moment)

Reverb is a must, and delays too but the devil is in the detail!

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='51m0n' post='930805' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:20 PM']Oh, and bin the drum machine, download Bluenoise MyDrumset. Its a free VST, gives you acces to a pretty well recorded Ludwig (IIRC) but you get to throw your own effects on each mic, which means a genuinely more realistic result IMO...[/quote]
Will check that out, thanks.
It's not even a drum machine, it's just my Korg PX4D (my constant jamming companion ). I know it sound pish but I was surprised at how "acceptable" I got the 2 loops to sound - especially the transition between them.

Will I be able to use the vst in Reaper?

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='930820' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:32 PM']Will check that out, thanks.
It's not even a drum machine, it's just my Korg PX4D (my constant jamming companion ). I know it sound pish but I was surprised at how "acceptable" I got the 2 loops to sound - especially the transition between them.

Will I be able to use the vst in Reaper?[/quote]

Yes

It can be made to sound new or old school just by learning how to compress and eq and what mics to favour etc etc, I like it since it leaves a lot of creative decisions up to you, and you can learn a huge amount about mixing drums from it.

WHen you add it to a track it adds about 9 tracks for the various mics in a folder under its main track, you can add fx to any of those tracks (ie the snare, or the kick or the overheads, or room mics etc).

With some creative grouping in Reaper you can have all those tracks grouped, a set of fx auxes for the drums alone, and a group around all of the above for a gentle buss glue comp or whatever.

You put your midi items on the main track and out comes beautiful drums!

Its a genius DAW is Reaper!

Edited August 20, 2010 by 51m0n

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='51m0n' post='930790' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:08 PM']...Its a bit dry, maybe, but the kind of reverb you need would be a gluey ambience type of thing (possible on everything, [b]even just on the two buss[/b], but very very very subtle) that you dont so much hear as feel. You could duck the bass off the kick too, so they aren't fighting for sonic territory so much....[/quote]
Noob question, what's a two buss? :blush:

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='51m0n' post='930827' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:38 PM']Yes

It can be made to sound new or old school just by learning how to compress and eq and what mics to favour etc etc, I like it since it leaves a lot of creative decisions up to you, and you can learn a huge amount about mixing drums from it.

WHen you add it to a track it adds about 9 tracks for the various mics in a folder under its main track, you can add fx to any of those tracks (ie the snare, or the kick or the overheads, or room mics etc).

With some creative grouping in Reaper you can have all those tracks grouped, a set of fx auxes for the drums alone, and a group around all of the above for a gentle buss glue comp or whatever.

You put your midi items on the main track and out comes beautiful drums!

Its a genius DAW is Reaper![/quote]
Wow that really sounds the nuts. I can't wait to give it a bash.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='930809' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:23 PM'][b]I find your mix a little too bright for my ears. Do you think mine lacked top end?[/b][/quote]

No, but like I said that was a five minute job cranked out on a pair of cans for a laugh, to do it seriously would take a [i]bit[/i] more time

Having said that I think your vocal lacked some presence, and could have been a bit louder to match more 'radio orientated' modern mixes. Not necessarily wrong by any means, but not as forward as you might want.

Edited August 20, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='930829' date='Aug 20 2010, 12:39 PM']Noob question, what's a two buss? :blush:[/quote]

Any group you set up will have a stereo output. In old mixer parlance that is a two buss. As in two channel buss.

The main outputs from a mixer are also a two buss, and therefore often get referred to as [i]the[/i] 2 buss

Edited August 20, 2010 by 51m0n

[derrenleepoole]

Sounds great mate! A very good way to start

One trick I was taught is this: when mixing and you want to check the overall balance of the mix etc, turn the level right down until it's really quiet, almost inaudible... this helps to identify if anything in the mix is too loud by comparison to anything else as it will jump out and will be noticeable more when quiet.

Mixing is a tricky thing, but I've enjoyed it when I've done it. I guess as long as it's audible and isn't too harsh on the ears then in my book it's a good mix. All I would say is you need to get the output level of the mix up significantly.

[gokcekacmaz]

sounds good... Just like RHCP.

[gokcekacmaz]

Hımm sometimes vocals off the tune...

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='930885' date='Aug 20 2010, 01:25 PM']Sounds great mate! A very good way to start

One trick I was taught is this: when mixing and you want to check the overall balance of the mix etc, turn the level right down until it's really quiet, almost inaudible... this helps to identify if anything in the mix is too loud by comparison to anything else as it will jump out and will be noticeable more when quiet.

Mixing is a tricky thing, but I've enjoyed it when I've done it. I guess as long as it's audible and isn't too harsh on the ears then in my book it's a good mix. All I would say is you need to get the output level of the mix up significantly.[/quote]
Neat tip. I'll check that out.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='gokcekacmaz' post='931063' date='Aug 20 2010, 04:01 PM']sounds good... Just like RHCP.[/quote]
Thanks.

[quote name='gokcekacmaz' post='931064' date='Aug 20 2010, 04:02 PM']Hımm sometimes vocals off the tune...[/quote]
It makes me cringe too. However as I said (shouted actually) in post #1, I ain't a singer and this version was only an "audio-sketch" for the guitarist to learn from.
But if that's your only critique then I guess I can live with that. I'd be upset if you thought the bass playing was gash

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='931103' date='Aug 20 2010, 04:29 PM']Neat tip. I'll check that out. [/quote]

Another variation is to go out the room and listen from next door

Another variation is to listen on many systems

The best solution is to get a really good monitoring package, and acoustically treat your mix room properly (doesn't actually have to be as expensive as you think to do this) and listen to a lot of music on that system in that space, then do the above too

Finally send your finished mix to be professionally mastered! I know this is an expensive choice but if it is an important mix it really can make an massive difference....

[51m0n]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='931115' date='Aug 20 2010, 04:42 PM']Thanks.


It makes me cringe too. However as I said (shouted actually) in post #1, I ain't a singer and this version was only an "audio-sketch" for the guitarist to learn from.
But if that's your only critique then I guess I can live with that. I'd be upset if you thought the bass playing was gash [/quote]

Hmmm Reaper does have an autotune VST built in you know.....

ReaTune IIRC